Education vs. Incarceration: The Early Release Program in Illinois
With a current state budget deficit in Illinois of some $13 billion, among the largest in the country, state legislators are making tough decisions about where to save money. Recently, Governor Pat Quinn proposed an “early release” program for prison inmates who have committed nonviolent crimes, but it was quickly met by a political backlash. The state has also seen severe cuts in public education. With the current economic crisis, Illinois residents will soon have to decide which they value more―education or incarceration.
In July 2009, Governor Quinn announced plans for cutbacks in corrections that would save a projected $125 million. It included an early release program which would eventually free more than 1,700 inmates in Illinois prisons and put them on parole. Similar programs have been implemented in California and Ohio with some success. According to the Taxpayer Action Board, a panel appointed by Quinn to analyze the budget for possible reductions, the state could save as much as $65 million this year and potentially $400 million annually by looking at alternatives to incarceration. This is in addition to increased productivity of those who would remain out of prison, not to mention the emotional benefit to families if their loved ones are not sent away. It costs on average $24,000 to house a prisoner for a year, while it only costs $4,000 to supervise a parolee. For many low-level offenders, parole is obviously a much more beneficial option.
With fewer people in prison, Quinn wanted to lay off more than 1,000 correctional officers. Republication lawmakers warned that reductions in staff would threaten security at prisons. AFSCME, the union which represents correctional officers in Illinois, promptly filed a lawsuit that blocked the firings. In negotiations, the union accepted deferred pay raises for two years and voluntary furloughs. No other alternatives were offered to save the state in staffing costs.
In 2009, the overall budget for the Illinois Department of Corrections was $1.44 billion. This was what it cost to house roughly 45,000 inmates in 28 prisons. In comparison, the state expenditures for public universities in Illinois is roughly equivalent, with $1.4 billion being spent in 2007. This was what it cost to educate approximately 200,000 students at nine public universities.
Currently, lawmakers are looking for ways to cut one billion dollars from public education which has a total budget of $10 billion, one quarter of the state expenditures. Within the University of Illinois system, some 11,000 employees were required to take four furlough days in 2010 to save the state $82 million. This is in addition to a wage freeze already in place. On the Urbana campus, dozens of Facilities and Services workers have been laid off. Positions have not been filled for faculty who have moved or retired.
During the primary election for Governor, Democratic contender Dan Hynes criticized Quinn’s early release program, saying it was done in “secret.” By December 2009, it came out in the newspapers that more than a dozen of those released early had already reoffended. Little mention was made of the statistics showing that, without education, work, or re-entry programs, half of inmates reoffend. Quinn blamed Illinois Corrections Director Michael Randle for the mistake. A state law was passed by the legislature that required inmates had to serve at least 61 days of a 12-month sentence. Those who had been released early were hauled back into prison. Quinn narrowly won the primary in March 2010 and was declared the Democratic Party candidate.
In the run-up to the primary election, local State’s Attorney Julia Rietz, who was supporting Dan Hynes’ campaign, attempted to do a political hit job on Quinn. The News-Gazette ran a story in which Rietz said she had obtained a list of the 21 early release inmates from Champaign County, a list given to her by Hynes. Rietz called Quinn “irresponsible” for releasing the individuals without notifying her first. Most of those on the list had been locked up for violating the terms of their DUI convictions and had sentences ranging from 12 to 24 months.
I made contact with one of the early release inmates from Champaign County. Luke Durso is a self-described “country boy” from the small town of Sidney, Illinois. He was caught driving with a suspended license after getting a DUI in April 2009. He was given a public defender who he said, “didn’t try very hard.” Judge Chase Leonard sentenced him to 12 months in prison, of which he had to serve 61 days before being paroled. Durso said he was about to finish a three-year apprenticeship as a Union Glazer working with metal and glass for Local 1168, but lost the job when he was sentenced to prison. He was sent to Western Illinois Correctional Center in Mt. Sterling, a level two medium security prison where inmates spend 22 hours locked up with two hours of recreational time. As part of the early release program, Durso got out after 34 days of time served. He got two jobs laying dry wall and working on a horse ranch. His parole officer showed up one morning several weeks later and was apologetic, but said he had to take him back to prison. Durso returned to serve the remaining 27 days at Logan Correctional Center in Lincoln, Illinois.
I talked to Durso after he was released and back home in Sidney. Under the terms of intensive house arrest, he had to see a parole officer every two weeks, check in every day by calling a phone number, and submit to drug testing. He was happy to be out of prison, but the two terms he had served in prison had turned his life upside down. He was 25 years old when he was locked up. He owns a house and has a four-year-old son. His inconsistent income has put him in a financial bind.
I asked Durso about the guys he was locked up with. He said most of them were “decent people” with families and jobs, not “dirtball crackheads.” According to Durso, 90% of the guys he met were locked up for “dirty drops”―they had smoked marijuana while they were on probation and failed a drug test.
Whether people like Durso should be punished for drunk driving is unquestionable. But it is doubtful that prison time is the best option for nonviolent offenders. Thousands are being sent to prison to sit in a jail cell for hours on end with no benefit to themselves or society. They are simply providing the raw material for a self-serving system which has lobbied for three decades to build more prisons, employ more correctional officers, and hire more prosecutors.
State lawmakers in Springfield are not expected to come up with a solution to the current budget shortfall until after the November election. Spending for prisons, schools, and other services is outpacing the revenue that can be brought in by taxes. If anything will roll back the trend of mass incarceration in the United States, it may be the current financial crisis.
Thanks to IMC interns Adrienne Thomas, Megan Bandy, Joe Cajindos, and Sarah Anane for assisting with research for this project.
BD

Miscellaneous Comments
Dan Hynes' criticism of Quinn's early release program is one of the reasons I voted for Quinn, rather than Hynes. Of course, Julia Rietz & the News-Gazette jumped on the early-release hysteria and attempted to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Many people are being sent to prison for trivial offenses: in the case of DUI, we are sending people to prison because of the crimes that we IMAGINE that they might commit in future, rather than the crimes that they have actually committed. This is a dubious legal principle. It's like sending all black adolescent males to prison on the grounds that they are statistically more likely to commit crimes than other demographic groups.
Since the 1980s, the mainstream media has promoted public hysteria over crime. This hysteria contains elements of discrimination against blacks, hispanics, and the poor by those who are affluent and white. One consequence of this hysteria, is the decline in state support for education. The figures in your article on state expenditures for prisons actually underestimates what the state actually spends on the criminal justice system: probation services, parole services, and state-subsidies to local law enforcement and courts are additional costs that your article has not revealed.
At some point, as a society we will have to decide what is more important to us: Are we committed to providing an affordable and quality education to everyone in the state, or are we more interested in incarcerating young adults for increasingly trivial offenses? So far, we've been cutting back funding to public education, but not the criminal justice system. Consider this: During the 1960s, about 50% of the University of Illinois' budget came from the state. Today, only about 10% of the university's budget comes from the state.
Clearly, our lawmakers and many members of the public, notwithstanding their rhetoric, have lost their commitment to funding public education. They are more interested in cutting taxes, providing more subsidies to private businesses that don't need them, and incarcerating more young people and throwing away the key. As a result, there will be more people who are less educated and less employable out in the streets, where they will be more likely to commit crimes.
Human Psychology
What is the root condition that causes us to concentrate heavily upon reinforcing our own sense of rightness and proving that others are wrong? Why does America pour so much money into the armed forces and military research? It seems it is this same mentality which places such a lopsided and utterly ridiculous focus on "correctional facilities" - while I am glad they no longer pretend to label them as rehabilitation centers, what exactly are correctional facilities correcting? They are just prisons, a place to ostentatiously punish someone for not adhering to some lawmakers desires.
So let's move beyond the rhetoric; how do we make a change in the system? If I want to see 50% of the state budget go towards helping the poor and education (like that would ever happen), how do I get that done?
Self-preservation.
That is the root condition that causes us to put people in prisons.
" They are just prisons, a place to ostentatiously punish someone for not adhering to some lawmakers desires."
No. They are a place to keep killers, rapists and thieves away from the decent members of society, so that they can't kill or rape us or steal our stuff. How else would you do it? The only two other ways I can think of are to either ship them off to some prison colony island, where they would slowly starve to death without productive people to support them, or simply put them to sleep like animals. Clearly, prisons are the most humane of our options.
You realize that there were something like 58 shootings in a single weekend in Chicago a couple weeks ago, right? You don't live in a neighborhood like that. If you did, you would understand perfectly well why prisons exist, and why some people need to be there.
Perhaps you think that, if we stopped punishing people for killing, raping, and stealing, they would stop doing it. This is pretty clearly not the case. Instead, what would probably happen is that people would have no choice but to arm themselves with guns (which, of course, I'm sure you are also against). And without punishment for people who can't live by society's rules, what we would probably end up with is an old-style feuding system, where people take revenge on the family members and friends of those who have wronged them. Violence would spiral out of control, as it tends to do in places without effective law enforcement (or in situations where people can't call the police, like gang members who don't want to be caught for their own crimes).
Are there laws that are punished too harshly? Sure. A lot of the war on drugs is a waste. But let's not pretend that allowing drug dealers to deal in your kids' schoolyard would be a good thing. And please, please don't be so naive to think that, if we just ended the war on drugs, all this violence would end. I can show you any number of videos on YouTube and LiveLeak of people just randomly coming up to another person and assaulting them. Just for kicks. Violence might decrease, but there are always going to be pathological savages who just get off on hurting people.
don't judge unless you know the facts
You sound like someone who is very uneducated on the facts of some of the people incarcerated. Let me fill you in....have you ever bounced a check or know someone that has? Do you feel that that is a menace to society or that person is any less of a person for that? Let me tell you I was one of those people with a spotless record including driving tickets and I bounced 2 checks and was told by my judge that I should have known better and that he was going to make an example of me for other female white suburban women to see so he sent me to the department of corrections. I had a very professional position and was active within the community, I made a mistake that almost everyone makes once in their lifetime and it cost me alot. I have a family that I had to leave for that period of time and there are many other women that don't belong in the department of corrections, but we focus on everything negative and try to stereo-type people. You need to take a long look in the mirror before you pass judgements on everyone and the state needs to take a look at what is going on in these women prisons and work release centers and I guarantee you they will be able to save alot of money by re-evaluating the women that are there. Yes - some do belong there but others do not!
The Ignorance and Irony
Anon 12:36pm's beliefs that
"They [prisons] are a place to keep killers, rapists and thieves away from the decent members of society, so that they can't kill or rape us or steal our stuff. Some people need to be [in prison because]... there are always going to be pathological savages who just get off on hurting people."
supports Anon's 9:27pm's claim that
"...we are sending people to prison because of the crimes that we IMAGINE that they might commit in [the] future, rather than the crimes that they have actually committed."
Clearly, there needs to be an understanding of who is in prison. The belief that there are 45,000 "killers, rapists, and thieves" currently being held in our prisons is a belief probably rooted in total ignorance of who is actually residing in the prisons. It is an ignorance that is equal to the idea that all drug dealers sell to school yard children. Sad that taxpayers are so willing to chuck whatever money is asked for while operating under such mythologies. Quinn Correctional officials know who could be allowed out tomorrow without jeopardizing public safety. As Mr. Dolinar's case study points out, there are people in the system who are not "killers, rapists, and theives". That the early release program was sabatoged by bureacratic blunders that did allow a very small percentage of offenders out who were too high-risk to be on the street- only stifled the real conversation regarding better use of the prisons beyond just a jobs program for public safety officials and unions.
Well, yes. Of course.
"
supports Anon's 9:27pm's claim that
"...we are sending people to prison because of the crimes that we IMAGINE that they might commit in [the] future, rather than the crimes that they have actually committed.""
Actually, it's both. We're punishing them for the crimes they committed. But obviously, those of us who are not deliberately deluding ourselves understand that the people who are committing crimes now are the same ones who are likely to commit them in the future.
Because, you know, crimes ARE going to be committed in the future. People are going to be robbed and beated up. And do you know who, in the vast majority of cases, are the people who are going to be robbing them and beating them up? Surprise! People who have robbed and beaten up other people before. It's pretty rare that someone lives a decent, hard-working life, and then decides to start committing armed robberies at like the age of thirty.
Yes. If you live a law-abiding life, then you should be given the benefit of the doubt, that you're not going to kill or rob anyone in the future. If you can't manage that, then you throw it away.
Surely, by now, you've heard of the "Grim Sleeper" killer in Los Angeles. About how he was arrested fifteen times since the killings started for things like car theft, burglary, and assault. He never made it into prison, though. Do you ever wonder how many more people would be alive today if it weren't for people like you?
"Clearly, there needs to be an understanding of who is in prison. The belief that there are 45,000 "killers, rapists, and thieves" currently being held in our prisons is a belief probably rooted in total ignorance of who is actually residing in the prisons. "
You're right. Only about a sixth of the people currently in prison are in there for violent crimes. The rest are in there for theft and things like that. The idea that the people in prison are there for smoking one joint, once in their lives, and that if they were set free, they would never commit another crime again is a belief that is definitely rooted in total ignorance.
" It is an ignorance that is equal to the idea that all drug dealers sell to school yard children."
I didn't say that all of them did. I said that, if there was no war on drugs, a lot more of them would. Heck, some of them already DO. I just think it's nice that we have a way to put a stop to it when we catch them in the act.
"As Mr. Dolinar's case study points out, there are people in the system who are not "killers, rapists, and theives". "
Yes, I know that. I already said that, in fact. Don't you think Brian picked the guy he interviewed fairly carefully? Don't you think he considered what message he was sending by a guy who was in there for DUI?
If you read closely
If you read again closely, you'll see I mention that most of the 21 cases were for DUIs. All the 1700 early release people were non-violent offenders.
Of the list of 21, I could only get an interview from one person.
Bill Brady tried to do a hit job on Quinn himself when just days after the primary election he claimed some violent criminal was an early release guy.
Turned out the individual had been let out according to state protocol.
So again there are those who would like to point to the worst case scenarios to justify mass incarceration, but the opposite is actually true. Most locked up don't need to be.
BD
Yes.
"Most locked up don't need to be."
Well, that's your opinion. I've known your opinion for a long time. Years, in fact, starting with that article you published by that guy who was in prison for aggravated sexual assault of a victim under the age of thirteen. He claimed to be a victim of society too.
See, I guess where you and I differ is that I think driving drunk really is a danger to public safety. It's like firing a gun into a crowd. Yeah, you might not kill anyone. But if not, it's just because you got lucky.
That guy you interviewed really doesn't sound that dangerous. Yes, one DUI could probably be chalked up to a mistake. But you also have to admit, it's pretty ridiculous to complain about having to serve 60 days in jail, as opposed to 34. It's also pretty ridiculous to think that letting anyone out of prison 27 days early is really going to have much of an impact on anything.
You know, I actually know a woman who is in prison for DUI. I forgot how many she got, all told. The last one was a Class X felony, I remember that. Probably because she had just been bailed out of jail, and was awaiting trial for ANOTHER DUI. She never killed anyone, thank god. Should she be in prison? Of course. But why? Obviously, it's because you realize that, if she's not put away, she's GOING to do it again! What does that mean? Well, to me, it sounds like it sometimes makes SENSE to put people in prison for crimes they're likely to commit again.
Tell me. How many people do you think go to prison for their first DUI? Unless they kill someone, I don't know of any. Like I said, one DUI doesn't necessarily mean you're dangerous. But what that's supposed to you is get you to WAKE UP and realize the danger you're putting others into. I've known quite a few people who've had DUIs. None of them were able to get their licenses back until they went through alcohol abuse treatment. You get another DUI? Well, clearly it would seem that the treatment hasn't really sunk in that well. What's it going to take to stop you? Cut off your driving foot? Well, that seems a bit harsh. Get one of those little breathalyzers for your car? Those are cool, and seem like they'd work, but only if you only ever have access to one car. I kind of get the impression that a lot of people in prison for DUI aren't GOING to stop. So I really don't see why it's so wrong to put them in a place where they don't even have the option to endanger us all with their bad choices.
You mention the dirty marijuana screens. OK. Seems pretty picky, right? Well, see, the idea is to see how likely you are to ever drive drunk again. These people KNOW they're on probation. They KNOW they can get screened for drugs at any time. Knowing that, you'd think a person who was committed to doing better would be able to LAY OFF THE GODDAMNED WEED for a few months. It's not like it's heroin, where the withdrawal symptoms can be pretty severe. It's just a matter of NOT DOING IT. So I can't help but think that anyone who tests positive for marijuana, knowing how severe the penalties can be, is not really all that interested in turning over a new leaf.
"All the 1700 early release people were non-violent offenders."
Well, what makes you think that violence is the only bad thing that people do? If someone breaks into my house when I'm not there and they steal my stuff, that's not violent. But it's still my stuff. They still shouldn't be allowed to just keep doing that. "Non-violent" and "victimless" are not the same thing.
Because, you know, crimes ARE
Because, you know, crimes ARE going to be committed in the future. People are going to be robbed and beated up.
How many people are in prison for aggravated armed robbery? Few. Anon 2:31pm's rabid obession that a convicted felon is a killing, raping, armed robbing thug with no conscious is a clear stereotype of anyone convicted of a felony. Again, the definition of who is in prison, what their outlook on life really is, their connections on the outside, and their ability to find meaningful employment is a stronger determination of how well they do outside of the walls. If every prosecution was handled by Anon 2:31pm's outlook- every lawbreaker would be treated like a "killer, rapist, armed robber" which Anon 2:31pm believes lawbreakers to be. Of the 10,000 criminal prosecutions performed in Champaign County yearly, how many should go to prison?
OK.
"How many people are in prison for aggravated armed robbery? Few."
How many are in prison for smoking one joint? None.
"Of the 10,000 criminal prosecutions performed in Champaign County yearly, how many should go to prison?"
Relatively few. That's why relatively few of them are. Do I think someone who robs someone should be in prison? Yes I do. Do I think someone who assaults someone should be in prison? Yes I do. I make absolutely no apologies for that. Perhaps you would prefer the idea of tribal conflicts to handle these crimes instead. Or you just want people who rob and beat people up to keep doing so. Either way, my version of society is the less violent, more humane one.
Why don't you tell me. What percentage of people in Illinois prisons are there for violent crimes. Just off the top of your head. I want to know if you actually have any idea.
Guessing Violent Offenders
I'm going to guess, off the top of my head, that those convicted of homicide of some degree, kidnapping, rape or sex offenses, unlawful USE of a firearm, a home invasion, armed robbery, and aggravated batteries would be at 20% of the prison population- and I am including that the offense that revoked a parole or probation was a violent offense. 80% of the rest of the population are drug-related cases and revoked probationers for non-violent violations. I would contend, and not that it matters in terms of a head count, that alot of violence is drug and alcohol related. That is no excuse in the eyes of the law, I understand.
Your certainty that once a criminal, always a criminal is supported by the 50% recidivism rate. (What factors lead to the other 50% not re-offending?)
I will not pretend that civil society is enhanced by the prison industrial complex. The way inmates are housed, and their time is occupied while in prison, is shameful and unhealthy, and unproductive toward curing the ailments that caused the behavior in the first place. It may remain a great convenience for some that at least the person is away from them, but the state can not afford forever sentences, and people do return home on parole eventually, What good is the product coming back from the People's investment of $24,000 a year? A college graduate? A skilled tradesman? A capable business person? A computer operator? Artists? Writers? Youth counselors?
Sentencing is too long- too much a waste of time- and the boring/dangerous waiting through a prison sentence only adds more stressors to drug addiction, poverty, and poor education. (As if prisons were drug-free) Being in the financial bind of court costs and fines, the chaotic life of not having a career, and scratching out employment where there is little to be had, makes serving probation/parole sentences difficult for many to abide by. Probation's strict prohibition against using recreational intoxicants to cope with the stress is often unrealistic and not the best standard by which to guage someone's current success at "taking care of business". There are many designs for failure within the system. Repeat offenders are created by the system as much as they are by the free will choice is to do something against the rules. (I've seen Julia Rietz talking on her cellphone while driving for example) Driving to get diapers, driving to get groceries, driving to pick up a relative is going to be a necessity regardless whether their is a suspended license or not.
The violent cycles have to stop somewhere. It may feel good to let go a vindictive kick of punishment to whomever breaks the law, but it does not always solve the problem and far too many don't need such a kick. 64 days in prison- or even the county jail, is very disruptive to a minimum wage father. No one has employers at that level committed to holding a position open for someone returning after a two month absence. In Mr. Dolinar's case study, the criminal justice system did not solve a drinking and driving problem- it created an unemployed father of a four-year old. Long term- a good outcome? Should we expect less or more alcohol drinking now that the criminal justice system has punished the DUI offender?
Here goes.
"80% of the rest of the population are drug-related cases and revoked probationers for non-violent violations."
You forgot the largest group. People who are in prison for non-violent crimes themselves. Things like burglary and arson and whatnot, that have a huge impact on their victims, but people insist on pretending aren't serious because they're not "violent".
And you know, you usually don't go to prison for stealing from someone once. You typically have to steal from a lot of people to wind up in prison. That's what these people have done. That's what they're almost certain to continue to do.
"Your certainty that once a criminal, always a criminal is supported by the 50% recidivism rate."
Yes, it is. And I'm glad that you seem to understand this, because a lot of people don't. They don't think that 50% is all that high. They say "Well, it's only half!". The problem is, they ignore the simply huge number of people who never go to prison in the first place.
To illustrate, imagine that we create a little town of 10,000 perfectly average individuals. Let's say that there are 100 armed robberies (this is actually a huge number for our small little town, but I'll get to that.). So those 100 people are caught and sent to prison. Now. Since we have a 50% recidivism rate, 50 of those people will commit another armed robbery again.
So. What are the odds that some random Joe, taken off one of our streets, is going to commit armed robbery. Well, there are 10,000 people in our town, and 100 of them will commit armed robbery. So the average person has a 1% chance of committing an armed robbery in the future. Now. Look at the ex-cons. What percentage of THEM will commit an armed robbery in the future. Fifty. 50%. In other words, an ex-con is fifty times as likely to commit an armed robbery in the future than the typical citizen. What this means is that, if you're going to be the victim of an armed robbery, then the type of person, by far, who is most likely to rob you is someone who has robbed someone else before.
Of course, like I said, no town with 10,000 people has 100 armed robberies. Ten armed robberies is much more likely. So. Ten people to go prison, and with our 50% recidivism rate, five of them will commit another armed robbery. In other words, 10 people out of 10,000 citizens will ever commit armed robbery in the future, or 0.1%. Of the ex-cons? 50% of them will. What does this mean? It means that an ex-con is FIVE HUNDRED TIMES as likely to commit armed robbery than an average person. Still think prison sentences are too long?
This is not news, of course. Pretty much everyone knows that there is a small percentage of people in all communities who cause an outrageous amount of the problems. What most people who are being honest understand is that these few people are committing all these crimes because they want to. Sure, you can try to convince them not to. In any social work program, there are some people it's simply not going to work for. Ever wonder who these people are? Think maybe it's the kind of people who just can't stay out of prison?
Yeah, of course. Some people commit one crime, get punished, and learn their lesson. That's great. That's not the kind of people who typically wind up in prison, though. You almost never wind up in prison for your first offense.
"I will not pretend that civil society is enhanced by the prison industrial complex."
Oh? Well, then why not let everyone out of prison? Keeping rapists and thugs locked up doesn't enhance anything. Hey, what about this guy?
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/courts-police-and-fire/2010-06-29/danville-man-arrested-sexual-assault-knifepoint.html
Why bother locking him up? From the article...
"According to Vermilion County circuit court records, Wilson had an emergency order of protection against him in October 2009. There also was an order of protection against him in 2005, and in 2007, he was convicted of possessing a controlled substance and sentenced to 30 months in prison.
Another charge at that same time, aggravated domestic battery, was eventually dropped by the state. Also in 2007, misdemeanor charges of domestic battery were filed against him, but were also dropped."
Hey, good thing those charges were dropped, huh? Good thing we saved money by not giving in to our rabid hysteria to "ostentatiously punish someone for not adhering to some lawmakers desires", right? How would it have possibly benefited our society to keep him away from your house? Or your sister or mom's house?
Because you're probably right. If he was locked up in prison last month, it wouldn't really have done him much good. It would have done a world of good for that woman he assaulted, though. Call me crazy, but I'm a lot more concerned with what would benefit that innocent woman than I am with what would benefit that scumbag.
"It may remain a great convenience for some that at least the person is away from them"
Yes it is. Do you know who that "some" is? People who live in poor, crime-riddled neighborhoods but are still TRYING to lead decent lives. People who live in the kind of places that I'm about 99% certain you DON'T live in. Don't you think they have enough problems without career criminals preying on them all the time?
You seem to be concerned that keeping criminals locked up costs too much money. Well. There are two approaches to fighting crime that would barely cost a thing. One is to simply not punish criminals at all. Return things to the law of all against all. That might be fun! We could live like Pashtun clans! Or the Yanomamo, in a state of constant retributional warfare! Awesome!
Or, we could take the other approach and simply remove the criminal element from our midst once and for all. What does a bullet cost? Fifty cents? A rope is a little bit more, but at least you can re-use it.
Well, hopefully you wouldn't advocate either of those. I certainly don't. But you're going to have to understand that any middle ground is going to cost us SOMETHING. How much is too much? I guess that depends on how much you're willing to pay to keep a woman from getting sexually assaulted at knifepoint, huh?
"What good is the product coming back from the People's investment of $24,000 a year? A college graduate? A skilled tradesman? A capable business person? A computer operator? Artists? Writers? Youth counselors?"
OK. So you want job training. Great. That's a good idea. Of course, you have to realize that a lot of people in prison aren't going to follow through with that, right? And that it's going to cost money. It will obviously cost more to house someone in prison AND give them job training than it would be to just house them in prison and NOT give them job training. You should be careful, then, about how much you talk about the need to save money in our corrections system, at least if you want people to get skill training.
Let's not pretend, either, that most of those people are going to find jobs once they get out anyway. It's not like there is a shortage of skilled individuals in this day and age. Ask any recent college grad if you don't believe me. Typically, there are a lot more applicants for jobs than there are jobs available. Imagine you were an employer. Who would you rather hire? The guy who has a 1% chance of going to prison for robbery or the guy with a 50% chance? That's what I thought.
"Probation's strict prohibition against using recreational intoxicants to cope with the stress is often unrealistic and not the best standard by which to guage someone's current success at 'taking care of business'."
Not always. But when the crime you were arrested for is driving a car under the influence of recreational intoxicants, I think it's a fantastic standard. People are always going to be under stress. If a guy has a history of jeopardizing others with his recreational drug use, then I kind of think it's important to know that he's going to be able to handle his stress in the future without resorting to intoxicants. Otherwise, what's to stop him from doing it again? The threat of going to prison? Well, you don't want that either.
Besides, you understand what probation is for, right? It's the criminal justice system's attempt at NOT sending you to prison. It's giving you a chance to prove that you're not going to offend again. If you can't do it, well, then what do you suggest? What if you KEEP blowing your probation?
"Driving to get diapers, driving to get groceries, driving to pick up a relative is going to be a necessity regardless whether their is a suspended license or not."
Oh? So I take it this guy had no friends or family who could give him a ride to the grocery store once a month to stock up on stuff? Right.
You know, it's fascinating and hilarious that, for my entire life, liberals have been talking to me about how easy, convenient, cost-effective and environmentally friendly it is to carpool. Now they're trying to convince me that it's cruel and unusual punishment to ask a guy to get a ride from someone else (AFTER he has proven that he can't handle the responsibility of having a driver's license, no less).
"In Mr. Dolinar's case study, the criminal justice system did not solve a drinking and driving problem- it created an unemployed father of a four-year old."
First of all, I don't doubt that Durso is, technically, the biological father of a four-year-old. But what do you think the odds are that he actually lives with this four-year-old or takes care of her? If he does, why couldn't his wife or girlfriend, the mother of this four-year-old, give him a ride? Perhaps he doesn't live with her. OK. Maybe he had sole custody of this four-year-old? It's possible, I guess. From what I know about family courts, though, they tend not to give custody to men who have a history of arrests for domestic battery. Interesting, isn't it, that Dolinar thought it was more important to tell us that this guy has a kid than that he has a history of arrests for violence? I wonder why he would do such a thing?
Anyway. The criminal justice system didn't tell him to drive on a revoked license. It told him not to, in fact. It even warned him what would happen if he did. Well, if HE isn't concerned enough about keeping his job to do what it takes to keep it, I don't see why the state should be any more concerned.
And what you don't seem to understand is that this isn't a one-time thing. He was already charged with driving on a suspended license once before. And arrested for assault and domestic battery. This is one of those guys who don't seem to respond too well to subtlety.
Besides. Who says it hasn't dealt with a drunk-driving problem? Maybe this guy actually has half a brain. Maybe next time he's out drinking, he'll think to himself "Wait a second! I really don't want to go through all THAT again!" and then put his keys back in his pocket and call somebody for a ride. If so, it would seem to me that it did a pretty good job dealing with a drunk-driving problem.
"Should we expect less or more alcohol drinking now that the criminal justice system has punished the DUI offender?"
Well, if that's your argument, then why should we ever punish anyone for driving drunk at all? I mean, if it's just going to make them drink more, why bother? Why not just ask people nicely not to drive drunk, but then not do anything about it when they do? Sounds good to me!
Here Goes Back
You forgot the largest group. People who are in prison for non-violent crimes themselves. Things like burglary and arson and whatnot, that have a huge impact on their victims, but people insist on pretending aren't serious because they're not "violent".
I would contend serial burglars are most often drug addicts supporting a drug habit. Arson I would consider a violent act, if for nothing else than the extreme potential for harm. Are we agreeing only 20% of the prison population are there for violent offenses against persons?
And you know, you usually don't go to prison for stealing from someone once. You typically have to steal from a lot of people to wind up in prison. That's what these people have done. That's what they're almost certain to continue to do. The certainty of your conviction is scary. There's no free will, free choice left in these burglar robots you seem to be describing?
It means that an ex-con is FIVE HUNDRED TIMES as likely to commit armed robbery than an average person. Still think prison sentences are too long? I want to believe there exists a pattern of circumstances that beats these odds, and ex-cons don't re-offend when these x-number of conditions are met. Rather than reach for more weaponry and jail cells, could the government invest in something that maximizes the chances of a good re-entry into society.? The chronic F-ups amongst us who fail these secondary safeguards can then earn their additional need for constant supervision. I say prison sentences are too long because of the too-long of nothing going on to improve a person's character and skill levels. It's the duration of ill-spent and unproductive time that is disturbing about the sentences. And yes, I would pay for the programming, supplies, faculty, counselors, and raw materials to have meaningful industry, education, and psychological/spiritual counseling happening in the prisons.
This is not news, of course. Pretty much everyone knows that there is a small percentage of people in all communities who cause an outrageous amount of the problems. What most people who are being honest understand is that these few people are committing all these crimes because they want to. I concede there exists chronic wilful alcoholic/bullies/nutjobs amongst us. How many is hard to say. I still see law enforcement's net catching dolphins with the tuna- these small cadre of thugs causing most of the problems are not the only people police and prosecutors go after- and regular working people are catching cases and are forced into even more stressful circumstances than need be, my opinion. There may exist 300-400 people in this community that need to be in an asylum. No question about it.
The criminal justice system, however, is spreading its net over thousands upon thousands of people who don't need too much of the whip to straighten out themselves. And there is an inconsistency to applying patrols and laws against the populace. But that is another long story.
Oh? Well, then why not let everyone out of prison? Keeping rapists and thugs locked up doesn't enhance anything. Hey, what about this guy?...I'm a lot more concerned with what would benefit that innocent woman than I am with what would benefit that scumbag. I would never say let everyone out of prison and that's not my argument as you know. My concern is for the 80% of non-violent offenders who could be more productive in their time of rehabiliation- time spent that is cost effective to the rest of us taxpayers, and is more effective at reducing recividism. I don't think sitting in a 5 by 9 cell 23 hours a day is doing a damn thing to improve things for many inmates who have the potential for much better.
I share your outrage in the case of the man unpunished for his violence against his partner. In fact, I hold the opposite opinions when it comes to domestic violence: the criminal justice system is not doing enough to protect battered women from the crazoids who trample them. My understanding is the criminal justice system is trying to improve this. Each death/or sexaual assault because of neglected orders of protection forces the system to hopefully, learn from their mistakes.
I believe there needs to be asylum. There are mentally ill, and extremely disturbed/possessed sociopaths who should not be allowed to roam free. Identifying these people after heinous crimes is the sad way we normally find these people to quarantine. There exists these monsters. I just don't lump every criminal prosecution into that category.
Also, there can be many types of prisons. There can be the cages, I suppose for those who have attacked guards and are extremely violent. There can also be the furniture repair job for a year behind bars for the asshole who drove drunk for his third time. Prison, asylum, and time-out doesn't have to be the one-hammer-fits-all model.
People who live in poor, crime-riddled neighborhoods but are still TRYING to lead decent lives. People who live in the kind of places that I'm about 99% certain you DON'T live in. (Make it 100% ,You're right about that) Don't you think they have enough problems without career criminals preying on them all the time? Again, I'm not lumping career criminals with the 80% of non-violent offenders I think a large percentage of whom could be brought back to the "good side" if given the right chance. I repeat, I think there needs to be some screening, better identifying of law breakers who show promise toward a more merciful solution than lock em up and throwing the key.
But you're going to have to understand that any middle ground is going to cost us SOMETHING. How much is too much? I guess that depends on how much you're willing to pay to keep a woman from getting sexually assaulted at knifepoint, huh? I'm willing to toughen the mandatory sentencing on violating protection orders and spend what's needed on housing individuals behind bars with intensive group therapy/12-step/counseling programming with an option to extend the prison time if counselors and peers don't feel the subject has made progress toward handling relationships in the future. I realize that's going to cost.
OK. So you want job training. Great. That's a good idea. Of course, you have to realize that a lot of people in prison aren't going to follow through with that, right? We obviously have a different view of inmates. I have met former ex-cons who were the smartest and kindest people I've ever met. You have obviously seen and know of another breed. I will say this: I could be niave since my dozen or so friends from the pen may not give an adequate understanding of how a jobs or skills training program would be received in the prisons.
You should be careful, then, about how much you talk about the need to save money in our corrections system, at least if you want people to get skill training. Agreed, tax me some more Mr. Quinn.
Let's not pretend, either, that most of those people are going to find jobs once they get out anyway. It's not like there is a shortage of skilled individuals in this day and age. Ask any recent college grad if you don't believe me. Typically, there are a lot more applicants for jobs than there are jobs available. Imagine you were an employer. Who would you rather hire? The guy who has a 1% chance of going to prison for robbery or the guy with a 50% chance? That's what I thought. Given that, the crisis is getting more severe. I think you would agree that what you also don't want is the ex-con standing around unemployed. I say bring back the WPA for that reason alone. Not quite the supervised boot camp chain gangs, but could there be some kind of working group that would provide accountability and productivity once inmates return?
...when the crime you were arrested for is driving a car under the influence of recreational intoxicants, I think [drug testing] a fantastic standard. Me too. But a house painter who pled guilty to a bar fight, doing his probation as best he can, providing for his family and all; but smokes a joint on the weekend when he wasn't working is not a good time to revoke probation.
Besides, you understand what probation is for, right? It's the criminal justice system's attempt at NOT sending you to prison. It's giving you a chance to prove that you're not going to offend again. If you can't do it, well, then what do you suggest? What if you KEEP blowing your probation? I would like to see probation standards be tailored to the extent of the crime and within the capabilities of the probationer- with emphasis on restoring the victims first before donations to the state coffers and lawyer fees. Too often, probation is too expensive with the monies directed at maintaining the criminal justice beast; and the restrictions are sometimes unreasonable for working people with kids, and doesn't address the person's problems.
Oh? So I take it this guy had no friends or family who could give him a ride to the grocery store once a month to stock up on stuff? Right. Your common sense serves well; still, why are so very many violating driving restrictions over and over? And if we are scheduling counseling and probation officer visits all over town for these people, with insistence they also keep a job, then needing a car is obvious. I suppose you would say that is the problem for the probationer to solve, not the state.
The criminal justice system didn't tell him [Durso] to drive on a revoked license. It told him not to, in fact. It even warned him what would happen if he did. Well, if HE isn't concerned enough about keeping his job to do what it takes to keep it, I don't see why the state should be any more concerned. Well at least you acknowledge the damage done by jail time to someone's employment. I think this a fair point of inquiry. His driving record is astonishingly awful: speeding, recklessness, under the influence, and he's fairly consistent about it throughout his driving career. This is your classic repeat offender, and I would want to know why he couldn't stop driving after being told to stop.
I don't assume from the record that Durso is violent because of the two batteries he's been charged with. If Assistant State's attorney Lozar, who had the evidence in front of him, could dismiss the domestic battery incident, then I question the true merits of the charge. In addition, the Whalens from Sidney are girls not given to always telling the truth to cops.
The driving remains bothersome. My main point would be that punishment or intervention for driving drunk, would actually solve the problem rather than create a deeper hole the offender needs to crawl out of. A good union job could be seen as an equal deterrent to irresponsible behavior as a prison sentence.
The question of whether the criminal justice system might cause more drinking to occur strikes me as silly as well, but I'll leave it as not helping to curb drinking either.
Thank you, Local.
First off, let me say thank you, thank you, THANK you from the bottom of my heart for your intelligent and well-reasoned response. I have really come to appreciate you, of late.
"I would contend serial burglars are most often drug addicts supporting a drug habit."
Probably. In fact, I'll do you one better by saying that quite a few of the violent crimes involve drugs in some capacity too. But that's not what most people mean when they say "drug-related offense". When they say that, they usually mean just owning drugs or selling them to someone that wants them. Something that does not fundamentally hurt anyone else.
"The certainty of your conviction is scary. There's no free will, free choice left in these burglar robots you seem to be describing?"
Well, rather than engage in a philosophical/psychological discussion of whether or not "free will" is even a meaningful concept, let alone whether it exists (which would actually be fairly interesting), I will merely make the following points:
1) You don't seem to believe in it much more than I do. After all, you think that if you just offer someone a job, they will suddenly start making wildly different types of choices than they had before. Well, if our choices are perfectly free, why would external influences suddenly change the free choices people make?
2) I wasn't talking about it as an individual certainty. I was talking about it as a statistical one. Sure, every individual COULD do something different than they've always done. But if you look at the evidence gathered over the years, you realize that most of them probably won't.
Suppose I said to you "It is almost certain that most Americans will celebrate Christmas in some fashion this December 25." Does that mean that these Christmas celebrator robots have no free choice or free will? I don't know. I mean, sure, anyone COULD choose to stop celebrating Christmas. Lots of Americans don't celebrate it now. But you're still pretty sure most of them will continue doing what they've always done, right? Well, what's the difference? I suspect that my burglary statement just bothered you because of the value judgment involved.
3) You admit that most of the burglaries are committed by drug addicts, right? Well, even if you believe in free will, you would probably admit that someone who is addicted to drugs DOES lack a certain amount of free will in some regard, wouldn't you?
But yes. I agree with you. This certainty of mine is pretty scary.
"I want to believe there exists a pattern of circumstances that beats these odds, and ex-cons don't re-offend when these x-number of conditions are met."
People want to believe all kinds of things, Local. That's how they sell lottery tickets. There may actually be a pattern of circumstances that beats the odds. Maybe. And if someone finds it, that'll be fantastic. I'm just holding back on my optimism a little.
"There may exist 300-400 people in this community that need to be in an asylum. No question about it."
OK. I can buy that. I'm assuming you mean the communities of Champaign and Urbana Well, let's crunch some numbers. According to Wikipedia, there are 67,518 people in Champaign. 17.8% are under the age of 18. That leaves us with 55,500 adults. Urbana has 36,395 people, 14.9% are under the age of 18, leaving us with 30,972 adults. This gives the twin cities a total adult population of 91,895. You admit that at LEAST 300 of these people should be in prison. So, 0.3% of the people in this community deserve to be in prison, by your reckoning.
The state of Illinois has 45,000 people in its state prison system. The state itself has a population of 13 million. So, 0.3% of the people in this state are in prison. Still think that's a wildly outrageous number?
Now, I'll grant you that that number is only the number of prisoners at one time, and tends to miss people like Durso who are only in for a month or two. But you also have to admit that there would be a lot MORE deranged sociopaths who needed to be locked up in this town if they weren't ALREADY locked up.
" I would never say let everyone out of prison and that's not my argument as you know."
Maybe it's not yours, but it is some people's. Remember that remark I made earlier about that guy who raped the little kid? The one who wrote this whole long thing about how he was a victim of society and didn't deserve to be in prison? Brian thought that was good enough to post on this site. I wish to god I could link to it, but it's from back before they changed the software they used for this site, and it doesn't seem to be in the archives anymore.
And when people say things like prisons are nothing more than "a place to ostentatiously punish someone for not adhering to some lawmakers desires", I suppose it's TRUE, technically, in that some lawmaker desires people to stop raping and killing each other. But why would you phrase it like that if you thought prisons were worthwhile?
Why would you say that the prison-industrial complex doesn't enhance civil society at all, if you admit that, whatever its faults, it DOES keep these people locked away from the rest of us?
"My concern is for the 80% of non-violent offenders who could be more productive in their time of rehabiliation- time spent that is cost effective to the rest of us taxpayers, and is more effective at reducing recividism. I don't think sitting in a 5 by 9 cell 23 hours a day is doing a damn thing to improve things for many inmates who have the potential for much better."
Why, Local? Why do people SAY these kinds of things? I just don't understand. Why do people pretend like just because a crime isn't violent, it's not severe?
Take car theft, for example. That's not violent, but if someone stole my car, I would be SCREWED. I need that car for my job, and at this point, I really don't see how I could afford a down payment on another. If someone came up and punched me in the stomach for no reason, that would be violent, but its effects on me wouldn't be nearly as severe as if he stole my car. I understand that, when some degenerate sees that deteriorating, ten-year-old hunk of sheet metal, he probably sees it as a way to get enough quick cash to keep him high for another couple of weeks. But when I see it, I think of the thousands of hours of work for bosses I have despised to a greater or lesser degree over the years that it took to pay it off. I think of the new transmission I had to put in and god know what all. And all that could be "gone in sixty seconds" because of some asshole you think has the potential to do much better.
Well, maybe he does. Maybe. Possibly. Maybe someday all that job training and crap would sink in and he'd stop stealing cars. Even you have to admit that it's not a certainty. What IS a certainty is that we could be sure he wouldn't be stealing any more cars for awhile if we locked him in a place where he wouldn't have access to any cars to steal. I think it's a little like getting off drugs. You have to go to detox to get all that crap out of your system first before those Narcotics Anonymous meetings are going to do any good, and you have to have some sense knocked into you first, so you realize the severity of what you've done before teaching you how to repair furniture is going to get you to turn your life around.
"I believe there needs to be asylum. There are mentally ill, and extremely disturbed/possessed sociopaths who should not be allowed to roam free. Identifying these people after heinous crimes is the sad way we normally find these people to quarantine."
Actually, that's not entirely true. You can usually tell who's going to commit severe crimes by the pattern of escalating petty crimes they commit first. Like I said, it's pretty rare that someone decides to commit murder as their first criminal act. With every criminal act you get away with, the next one gets easier. That's why they punish people for less severe crimes, so that hopefully, they'll realize how severe the consequences can be, and then won't go on to commit the severe ones. Granted, that requires an ability to plan for the future that a large segment of our criminal class doesn't seem to possess. But it's better than doing nothing. And yeah, if you can find the ones for whom compassion and skill training actually works, then by all means, go for it. What makes you think you're the first one to come up with this idea, or that nobody is trying it now, though?
"I just don't lump every criminal prosecution into that category."
Neither do I. Neither does anyone else. That's why the majority of criminal prosecutions don't end with the perpetrator going to prison.
"Also, there can be many types of prisons. There can be the cages, I suppose for those who have attacked guards and are extremely violent. There can also be the furniture repair job for a year behind bars for the asshole who drove drunk for his third time. Prison, asylum, and time-out doesn't have to be the one-hammer-fits-all model. "
I agree with you completely on this one. And you're right, that's something that the corrections system does need to be better about. But complaints like Brian's about the system costing too much money certainly aren't going to get us any closer to that.
"We obviously have a different view of inmates. I have met former ex-cons who were the smartest and kindest people I've ever met. You have obviously seen and know of another breed. I will say this: I could be niave since my dozen or so friends from the pen may not give an adequate understanding of how a jobs or skills training program would be received in the prisons. "
And here we come to it. To the real issue. I suspect you might be naive. Not just about cons. About people in general. You seem like an intelligent, well-educated individual. I would suspect that, like most intelligent, well-educated individuals, most of the people you associate with are likewise intelligent, well-educated individuals. Have you much experience with the lower steps on the socioeconomic food chain? Like, the lowest? Subcultures that go by names such as "ghetto" or "white trash"? Because you realize that that's where the majority of our criminals come from, right?
How can I put this delicately?
Have you ever seen the movie Idiocracy? If not, I give it my absolute highest recommendation. It is a truly brilliant social satire (including some stupid cops I think you would find hilarious), but for some people, it's really not that far off.
See, I don't think the problem with society is really the few monsters out there. It's the HUGE mass of people who simply don't give a shit. Abouta nyone else. About themselves. About ANYTHING.
You've met these people. The kind of people who get fired from their job for talking on their goddamned cellphone all day, after being warned about it repeatedly.
I remember working at Wendy's when I was in high school. One time, I got called in to work because this woman who had served time for check fraud just didn't show up. No call. Just didn't show up. She came in the next day, and they asked her why. She just didn't feel like it. No excuse. Not even bothering to lie. Just didn't feel like it. The manager wrote her up, but gave her another chance. Two weeks later, she didn't show up again. Finally got fired. Came in the next day to shout at the manager, in front of everyone else, that she NEEDED that job. This was not a teenager. She was in her late twenties.
I'm talking about grown men who show up for job interviews REEKING of marijuana.
I'm talking about the people at a job I had the summer after high school. I worked in a day treatment facility for people with developmental disabilities. Every day, we would drive the people home to the large facility they all lived in. I don't know where they found the people who worked there. They didn't do ANYTHING. I would see them, standing around, joking around. Doing nothing. Every single day, it was a struggle to get them off their asses to do something. I remember, the fourth of July long weekend that year. Came back afterwards, found that none of our people had been given a bath over the weekend. They weren't understaffed. They just didn't feel like working. Then, we were changing the Depends on one guy who was in a wheelchair. Found out that, evidently, they hadn't moved him at all over the weekend, and he had developed a pressure sore on his scrotum. I'm not even going to TELL you the worst part of that story, because you wouldn't believe me. They just didn't give a shit.
That place has closed down, fortunately. I have a friend in another town who works at a group home like that. Just last week, she was telling me about the "ghetto" woman she was working with. Two of her "ghetto" friends, who work at another home decided not to go there, but instead come by to visit her all night. Just didn't go to do the job they were supposed to. All night, they just sat around eating and making jokes about community service and stuff like that. One of them was in the kitchen at one point, making herself some food. She yells out "Hey! So-and-So is eating toothpaste!". My friend comes in and sees that she hasn't even tried to stop him. Just kept making her food. Just didn't give a shit.
I'm talking about a heroin addict who was found by the state to be neglecting his kids. They warned him. "Listen! If you don't stop doing heroin, you will NEVER SEE YOUR KIDS AGAIN!". He says he wants to. So they hire him a nice young lady to be a caseworker. She busts her ass finding him a spot in a detox center where he can get inpatient treatment. She makes arrangements to pick him up, even. The time comes, she goes to pick him up, and he is nowhere to be seen. Shows up a few weeks later and asks if his spot is still open. This happens a few times.
Are you suggesting to me that if, instead, someone had told this guy "Hey! Come on back tomorrow! I'll show you how to fix furniture so you can get a job!". Do you think he would actually take them up on it?
Talking to people like this will shorten your life significantly. It's hard to tell whether they are genuinely clueless or just being passive aggressive sometimes. Do you know, for example, how many people are in jail just because they didn't show up for court? Ever heard something like this? A guy complains about the cops arresting him for not showing up for court.
"Well. So why didn't you show up?"
"I didn't know what day it was!"
"What do you MEAN you didn't know what day it was?"
"I mean, I don't keep track of what day of the month it is!"
"OK, but you knew you had court coming up! Don't you think you should have tried to figure out what day it is?"
"I 'on' know."
"Look. You have a cellphone, right? I bet every time you open it up, it tells you what day of the month it is."
Stony silence.
Would you like me to go on, Local? Because I could. And, no, before you say it, I assure you, I am not a cop. Never have been and never will be. But over the years, I have been in a position to experience this kind of stuff.
It's very painful to be around these people. And not just because you're disgusted by them. You pity them. And in a way, they remind you of every mistake you've ever made. I assure you, I am not perfect, and there's always this weird "there but for the grace of god" feeling. But look, I've LEARNED from my mistakes. You can't help but feel that these people are going to spend the rest of their lives like this. It makes you feel like, well. Like Joe in Idiocracy when he talks to Rita before Monday Night Rehabilitation. Or, like the party he has after he survives and becomes Vice President. You want to help these people, but what can you do?
Yeah, you can offer them job training. You think any of them are going to show up after the first or second session? It's lovely that you think this about people, it truly is. But I just don't think so.
Now, they might, if you threatened to send them back to prison if they DIDN'T follow through. Maybe you'd agree with that. I don't know.
" I think you would agree that what you also don't want is the ex-con standing around unemployed. I say bring back the WPA for that reason alone. Not quite the supervised boot camp chain gangs, but could there be some kind of working group that would provide accountability and productivity once inmates return?"
Actually, I don't particularly care WHAT they do, as long as they're not committing crimes anymore. Maybe having a job would help. Maybe some of them would actually show up for it, and actually work. If so, great. But, I think you're going to face some pretty severe objections from the mass of law-abiding people who (justifiably, in my mind) might think they should be considered for these jobs first.
"Me too. But a house painter who pled guilty to a bar fight, doing his probation as best he can, providing for his family and all; but smokes a joint on the weekend when he wasn't working is not a good time to revoke probation."
Well, I did say it wasn't always. I was talking about Durso when I wrote that.
However, you seem to be missing one of the other points about marijuana. It's trying to find out if you're capable and willing to follow a fairly simple rule. CAN you just lay off the weed for a little while? Do you really understand the gravity of your situation, and are you really willing to do what it takes to get out of it?
It's possible that it would be better to tell someone to stay off alcohol than marijuana, since the former is the one more likely to cause you to commit more crimes, while the latter is more likely to cause you to find the farm report on the radio hilarious. But then again, unless you're caught in the act of drinking, nobody would ever know. Marijuana has the advantage of being really easy to test for.
Plus, I think you may have the intelligent, educated person's perspective of marijuana. Most people tend to judge it by the experiences they have had with it, or the experiences of their friends with it. So when a college-educated person thinks of marijuana, they think of studying really hard for an exam, taking it, and then afterwords, smoking a joint to blow off steam. For a lot of people, it's more like getting high all day INSTEAD of studying for the exam and taking it.
I don't know how old you are, but do you remember that song from the nineties by Afroman? "Because I Got High"? For a lot of people, that song is pretty accurate. I don't think that's what a lot of educated people think of. They think of it as a way to get high once or twice a week at a party. Which is something they do IN ADDITION to being productive.
For a lot of people, it's an "instead" thing. Like, they might think something like "Hmm. What to do today? I could go to the library and get a book. Maybe learn a thing or two. I could develop an interesting hobby, like coin collecting or, I don't know, carving little animals out of soapstone. Yeah! That sounds really interesting! Or... you know... I could sit here on the couch all day, getting high and laughing my ass off at Yo Gabba Gabba. You know. I haven't seen that show in awhile. That sounds really good!".
Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. But it's sort of like eating at McDonald's. Yeah, going out for a Big Mac and large fries once or twice a month really isn't going to hurt you. But when you eat there every day, it starts to take its toll.
And, whatever. It's their life, and they can do what they want. I just don't think you necessarily are going to have much luck turning your life around if you do that kind of stuff all the time. Sure, people who smoke a joint occasionally aren't going to be held back much by it. But they're typically not the kind of people who wind up in prison.
"And if we are scheduling counseling and probation officer visits all over town for these people, with insistence they also keep a job, then needing a car is obvious. I suppose you would say that is the problem for the probationer to solve, not the state."
Yeah, it sure is. What are they SUPPOSED to do? This guy has proven he's a menace behind the wheel, as you admit. Should they just let him keep on driving. Just wait until he actually kills someone to take his license away?
"I don't assume from the record that Durso is violent because of the two batteries he's been charged with. If Assistant State's attorney Lozar, who had the evidence in front of him, could dismiss the domestic battery incident, then I question the true merits of the charge. In addition, the Whalens from Sidney are girls not given to always telling the truth to cops."
Well, I admit I don't know anything about any Whalens. You seem like you have more information about that than I do, so you could be right. However, it should be noted that that rapist from earlier had HIS domestic battery charges dropped too.
"A good union job could be seen as an equal deterrent to irresponsible behavior as a prison sentence."
Heh. Yeah. Sign me up for one of those too, while you're at it!
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, though. People with union jobs don't drink? They don't drive? How is that going to be a deterrent to anything? You mean, like, a job he might lose if he DOES drink and drive? He already had one of those. And he did lose it. You seemed to think that was a bad thing earlier.
Local, this has been the most. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I apologize for going on so long. I tried to look for things to cut out so it would be shorter, but decided that this was pretty much good. Thank you again.
Thanks Anon 8:16pm
Thank you Anon 8:16pm. It's refreshing to have a sincere disagreement without the devolution to name calling and nanny boo boos. I appreciate your thoughtful positions as well. To respond:
In fact, I'll do you one better by saying that quite a few of the violent crimes involve drugs in some capacity too. Making drug intervention probably the best investment the government could make- if drug treatment worked. That's a big if.
After all, you think that if you just offer someone a job, they will suddenly start making wildly different types of choices than they had before. The correlation of unemployment and crime is well established, but you are completely right, I assume having a job won't lead to committing a crime. It would be easy to throw the avalanche of cases into my face that involve the perpetrator employed at the time of their crime.
Sure, every individual COULD do something different than they've always done. But if you look at the evidence gathered over the years, you realize that most of them probably won't.
I suspect that my burglary statement just bothered you because of the value judgment involved.
I have no cool retort to this. Budget overseers and urban planners have to operate on these statistical realities- and it's a cold-hearted decision to say 1% of these first graders are going to need to be housed somewhere during their lifetime, so we better start saving for and building their jail cell. Call it polyanna, I would rather do what we can do to prevent same-o' same-o'. Not an easy task, understood.
There may actually be a pattern of circumstances that beats the odds. Maybe. And if someone finds it, that'll be fantastic. I'm just holding back on my optimism a little. I obviously am not holding back optimism. I think here is where re-entry needs to be designed by inmates who have had success regaining their place in society. There's gotta be a formula for maximizing the chance someone chooses not to do what they did before.
So, 0.3% of the people in this state are in prison. Still think that's a wildly outrageous number? No it's not a wildly outrageous number, but the 45,000 don't represent the small band of troublemakers who need constant supervision that I support locking up. Too many of the 45,000 are not this brand of criminal we have been talking about. There are too many people in prison who could benefit us and themselves with alternatives to straight incarceration. And again, my critique is not just the number of people, but the way they are housed.
But you also have to admit that there would be a lot MORE deranged sociopaths who needed to be locked up in this town if they weren't ALREADY locked up.
Why would you say that the prison-industrial complex doesn't enhance civil society at all, if you admit that, whatever its faults, it DOES keep these people locked away from the rest of us?
Because of the way the prison time is spent NOT rehabilitating the person back into a taxpaying customer/parent out here with the rest of us. The product the taxpayers are buying is junk. The debate centers on who's fault that is- the system and its design, or the inmates and their uncooperativeness?
Why do people pretend like just because a crime isn't violent, it's not severe?
Take car theft, for example...
What IS a certainty is that we could be sure he wouldn't be stealing any more cars for awhile if we locked him in a place where he wouldn't have access to any cars to steal.
I guess what we are saying is the treatment to stop stealing cars is not addressed by the current lock-down model employed by IDOC. It's not crime resolution. It's a great model for officer safety, but offender rehabilitation it is not. Like it or not, the average length of a prison sentence is only 3 years, and we have parolees by the thousands in our midst. I want crime incident reduction. A time in prison/asylum ought to mean more than just preventing another crime from being committed for the duration of the sentence. Your argument is exactly why the terms of probation are so exasperating at times. There is very little victim restoration in the mix of fines and fees. That's another assumption I have: taking actual responsibility for your crime prevents another crime from being committed.
I think it's a little like getting off drugs. You have to go to detox to get all that crap out of your system first before those Narcotics Anonymous meetings are going to do any good, and you have to have some sense knocked into you first, so you realize the severity of what you've done before teaching you how to repair furniture is going to get you to turn your life around.
How long does this "knocking of sense" need to be? two weeks? three years? 10 years? And what harsh conditions are you advocating for when society goes about the business of "knocking sense" to its people? Is it productive to house two by two in 5 X 9's indiscriminantly with the rapists and murderers? Yeah, some like to joke: a little reach for the bar of soap might cure that nasty car-stealing habit forevermore; then again, maybe the car thief just gets out after a year and a half later, with violent trauma added to their unemployable status. My main critique is the conditions in the prisons seem to do little to prevent incidents of crime, and are fostering a criminal class far greater than has to be.
You can usually tell who's going to commit severe crimes by the pattern of escalating petty crimes they commit first. With every criminal act you get away with, the next one gets easier. That's why they punish people for less severe crimes, so that hopefully, they'll realize how severe the consequences can be, and then won't go on to commit the severe ones.
How's that deterrence working for you? I don't understand why terms of probation and parole do little to prevent another crime. This is an important point you're making here, and its intelligence "liberals" like myself too often overlook. Someone recently said, "I support criminal profiling" and before condemning "broken window" enforcement policies, we have to ask what is the life of a repeat offender? Is having a person serving time for criminal damage to property helping to lower the overall crime rate- since it's usually true(?) that Mr. Criminal Damage would have become Mr. Armed Robber later on?
Granted, that requires an ability to plan for the future that a large segment of our criminal class doesn't seem to possess.
I don't have knowledge that tells me the criminal class lacks the ability to plan for the future. You can call that a huge ignorance on my part.
What makes you think you're the first one to come up with this idea, or that nobody is trying it now, though?
Well, pardon my arrogance, I don't claim to be the first, nor do I deny the existence of some programming going on in the prison. What I do know is there once was alot more programming and education happening, it has been drastically cut back to save money; and where there is programming, life of the inmates, the life of the institution, and the inmate's success afterwards is better. I think Anon 8:16pm we are both on board for re-designing the prisons- and no, it does not necessarily mean lowering the costs of the IDOC budget.
Have you much experience with the lower steps on the socioeconomic food chain? Like, the lowest? Subcultures that go by names such as "ghetto" or "white trash"? Because you realize that that's where the majority of our criminals come from, right?
I don't think the problem with society is really the few monsters out there. It's the HUGE mass of people who simply don't give a shit. Abouta nyone else. About themselves. About ANYTHING.
You've met these people. The kind of people who get fired from their job for talking on their goddamned cellphone all day, after being warned about it repeatedly.
I'm talking about grown men who show up for job interviews REEKING of marijuana.
They just didn't give a shit.
Are you suggesting to me that if, instead, someone had told this guy "Hey! Come on back tomorrow! I'll show you how to fix furniture so you can get a job!". Do you think he would actually take them up on it? Yeah, you can offer them job training. You think any of them are going to show up after the first or second session? It's lovely that you think this about people, it truly is. But I just don't think so.
Now, they might, if you threatened to send them back to prison if they DIDN'T follow through. Maybe you'd agree with that. I don't know.
People described above do exist in real life. You have to reckon this reality when designing a "new and improved" criminal justice system. I don't know how many of these people exist within the 45,000 prison population, and that takes us back to my original question, the center of our disagreement: who is residing in the prisons. Are most people in the criminal class these I-don't-give-a-shits Anon 8:16pm has accurately described?
Actually, I don't particularly care WHAT they do, as long as they're not committing crimes anymore. Maybe having a job would help. I'm sure studies have been done about the effects employment has on future criminal activity, but can't quote you one off the top of my head. I assume employment is favorable toward reducing criminal activity.
Maybe some of them would actually show up for it, and actually work. If so, great. But, I think you're going to face some pretty severe objections from the mass of law-abiding people who (justifiably, in my mind) might think they should be considered for these jobs first.
Yes, you probably would. Which is why I think the government may have to act as initial employer for many former inmates with low skills and slim chance on their own. The WPA could benefit infrastructure maintenance and capitol improvement projects while at the same time, begin establishing a work ethic/routine for parolees adjusting to the outside.
However, you seem to be missing one of the other points about marijuana.
It's possible that it would be better to tell someone to stay off alcohol than marijuana, since the former is the one more likely to cause you to commit more crimes, while the latter is more likely to cause you to find the farm report on the radio hilarious.
My exposed foolishness is worth it for this sentence alone. I'm glad someone else is able to see the Alcohol Elephant in the room.
For a lot of people, it's more like getting high all day INSTEAD of studying for the exam and taking it.
For a lot of people, it's an "instead" thing. But it's sort of like eating at McDonald's. Yeah, going out for a Big Mac and large fries once or twice a month really isn't going to hurt you. But when you eat there every day, it starts to take its toll.
I just don't think you necessarily are going to have much luck turning your life around if you do that kind of stuff all the time. Sure, people who smoke a joint occasionally aren't going to be held back much by it. But they're typically not the kind of people who wind up in prison.
This distinction between recreational use and drug and alcohol addiction is another reckoning us "hug-a-thug libs" would do well to remember. Drug/alcohol abuse and drug/alcohol use by minors are serious problems, and while debating what to do about it is legitimate, not reckoning this problem a problem is not. The 12-step treatment and detox programs are the first line of defense in public safety. Nevertheless, I still question whether prison cures addiction, especially when alcohol and drugs are available in the prisons.
Should they just let him keep on driving. Just wait until he actually kills someone to take his license away?
All I can say for sure is, taking away driving privileges, justifiably or not, has serious ramifications for the person's chances at completing probation. Could the probation office provide a MTD shuttle to the substance abuse counseling appointment across town?
People with union jobs don't drink? They don't drive? How is that going to be a deterrent to anything? You mean, like, a job he might lose if he DOES drink and drive? He already had one of those. And he did lose it. You seemed to think that was a bad thing earlier.
Well, I want to believe a good job helps get rid of the temptation to get drunk or high or fistfight somebody. It's hard to leave the intuition that working means no robbing. As you have said before, "It's pretty rare that someone lives a decent, hard-working life, and then decides to start committing armed robberies at like the age of thirty."
Back again.
Sorry this took so long, Local. I've been sort of busy lately. Anyway, here goes.
"Making drug intervention probably the best investment the government could make- if drug treatment worked. That's a big if."
You're not going to get any argument from me here. I hope you don't get your hopes too high, though. Elsewhere, you write
" Yikes. I can't imagine there is not one program invented that has a better than 50% success-rate, a rate at least higher than the 50% level the state is at."
Oh, I bet you could if you tried. Here's a random finding:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/49482.php
"The results of Beynon et al.'s study show that the proportion of individuals who dropped out of treatment increased from 7.2% in 1998 to 9.6% in 2002. Individuals coerced into treatment by the criminal justice system were more likely to drop out of treatment than those referred through other routes. The proportion of drug users who successfully completed treatment decreased from 5.8% in 1998 to 3.5% in 2002, but the proportion of drug users who came back to start treatment again after dropping out of treatment increased from 22.9% in 1998 to 48.6% in 2002."
I'd be amazed if anyone got anything that APPROACHED 50%, if you included people who were coerced into going. Nowhere near 50% of people who get arrested for drug-related offenses really want to stop, at least not badly enough to put in the work.
Getting off drugs can be hard work. That's what addiction means. It means that it's easier to continue it than it is to stop. Have you ever met someone who's gone through the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous? Ask them about steps 8 and 9 sometime. You have to make a list of everyone you've ever harmed, then go to them and make amends for it all. Sort of like that show My Name Is Earl. I think I would have a pretty hard time with that. Even if you don't do it the twelve step way, you still have to make a lot of changes. You have to make a new circle of friends and start new habits. You have to figure out what to do when you get bored (that's the killer for a LOT of people, not just drug addicts). It would be pretty hard for you to do that too, if you thought about it.
Going and getting another crack rock, on the other hand, is quite easy. And the one after that is even easier. And on and on it goes.
I think we should allow ibogaine treatment, though. It seems to have a pretty good track record, although, obviously, the people who have gotten it so far are in no way a representative sample of drug addicts. Plus, it would seem to me that any chemical that completely shorts out your opioid receptors to the point that you never want to do heroin again is probably doing something ELSE to your brain, that you may not want.
"it's a cold-hearted decision to say 1% of these first graders are going to need to be housed somewhere during their lifetime, so we better start saving for and building their jail cell. Call it polyanna, I would rather do what we can do to prevent same-o' same-o'. Not an easy task, understood."
Yeah, I guess you could say it's cold-hearted. It's cold-hearted to think that I'm going to get sick someday, so it would be pretty prudent to start getting health insurance now. You're not going to get rid of all crime. I mean, you know that, right? For just one example, the last I heard, there was still no treatment for antisocial personality disorder.
"Too many of the 45,000 are not this brand of criminal we have been talking about. There are too many people in prison who could benefit us and themselves with alternatives to straight incarceration."
Honestly, what makes you so sure? Not just feelings you have or what you want to believe. What really makes you think that? I'm curious. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't ANY. But why do you think that it's this huge percentage of the people in prison?
"Because of the way the prison time is spent NOT rehabilitating the person back into a taxpaying customer/parent out here with the rest of us. The product the taxpayers are buying is junk."
Only if you think keeping women from getting raped and cars from getting stolen is junk. This is the problem. You just DON'T SEE all the things that don't happen. It's not just you. It's a fundamental problem of decision-making.
You don't see all the cars that that guy WOULD have stolen if he hadn't been locked up. You can't see them, because they never DID get stolen. Because he was in prison. You don't see all the women who would have gotten raped if we hadn't locked that rapist up, because they never DID get raped.
So when you say it's not doing any good to lock up car thieves, you don't take that into account. You say that it's just not doing any good to lock someone up. If you could SEE all the cars the guy would have stolen (like if you had a glimpse into a parallel dimension where he wasn't locked up) then you would understand why it makes sense to lock him up, and why it actually DOES do our society some good.
"It's a great model for officer safety, but offender rehabilitation it is not."
And regular person safety, don't forget.
"There is very little victim restoration in the mix of fines and fees. That's another assumption I have: taking actual responsibility for your crime prevents another crime from being committed."
You're right, they should do that too. But it can't JUST be victim restoration. It has to be more. If a guy steals a car, and then gets caught, and all he has to do is give it back, he would never stop stealing cars. I mean, if he just had to give it back, then he's not any worse off than he was before, and he might not get caught. Therefore, stealing cars is at least neutral, and at most, highly profitable. You're incentivizing it. Why would you NOT steal cars if you were in a situation where all you had to do was restore it to the owner if you got caught? You'd be stupid not to. Which is why they have prisons. So that, if you get caught, something REALLY, REALLY BAD happens to you. Maybe you'd prefer caning car thieves like they do in Singapore? I mean, they could get back to their jobs after that and it would barely cost us a thing.
"How long does this "knocking of sense" need to be? two weeks? three years? 10 years?"
Well, that depends on what you did, obviously, plus your prior record of committing crimes. Sort of like how they do it now.
"And what harsh conditions are you advocating for when society goes about the business of "knocking sense" to its people? Is it productive to house two by two in 5 X 9's indiscriminantly with the rapists and murderers? Yeah, some like to joke: a little reach for the bar of soap might cure that nasty car-stealing habit forevermore; then again, maybe the car thief just gets out after a year and a half later, with violent trauma added to their unemployable status."
You know what? You are RIGHT on the money on this one. I think it's disgusting when people joke like that. I've heard judges even make jokes like that. Does he not see that he's essentially sentencing these guys to be anally raped? It's absolutely vile. I remember people talking about what a monster Saddam Hussein was for having "rape rooms". Apparently, though, it's all a big joke when it happens here.
It boggles my mind that they don't treat assaults in prison as separate crimes. Well, if you raped some woman on the outside, you'd get tried and sentenced to ten years in prison or so. I think they should do the same thing in prison. They should try them as crimes, and if you're found guilty, you stay ten years longer. If you're a repeat offender, you have the choice of either being castrated or spending the rest of your time on earth chained to a wall.
You're also right about that kind of environment making you a much more hateful person. As I recall, one of the guys who dragged James Byrd to death claimed that he had never been particularly racist before going to prison and joining the Aryan Nation. Now, that may be entirely self-serving, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that that's a fairly common story. People join gangs in prison because they need protection from OTHER gangs, and the gangs in prison are pretty much race-based.
So yes, they do need to crack down on violence in prison. I'm not at all opposed to the idea of having separate prisons for violent and non-violent offenders. You realize that the only way to decrease violence among the violent ones is to make prisons even harsher, though, right? Less time in the exercise yard or mingling with other prisoners is just about the only way I can think of to keep them from shanking each other.
"How's that deterrence working for you?"
Pretty well overall, I'd say. There aren't THAT many violent crimes or car thefts going on. I am able to visualize the ones that would be committed but aren't being, even if I can't see them.
"I don't have knowledge that tells me the criminal class lacks the ability to plan for the future. You can call that a huge ignorance on my part. "
Well, it would seem to me that you do, Local. If you know that you're on probation, and you know that doing drugs again will land you in prison, and you know you're going to be tested for drugs, and yet, you do them ANYWAY, that would seem to indicate a fairly serious failure to plan, wouldn't you agree?
"Are most people in the criminal class these I-don't-give-a-shits Anon 8:16pm has accurately described?"
I suppose I don't really know the percentages, but I would imagine the majority probably are. Those people I talked about always seem to be on probation, or have a history of getting in trouble with the law. Almost invariably. Not to say that others don't get into trouble with the law either, but they seem much less likely to have that kind of record.
"I assume employment is favorable toward reducing criminal activity."
Well, maybe. Are you sure which is the chicken and which is the egg? How do you know the correlation doesn't come more from the fact that the kind of people likely to become criminals aren't the kind of people likely to go out and find a job and do what it takes to keep it?
"Yes, you probably would. Which is why I think the government may have to act as initial employer for many former inmates with low skills and slim chance on their own. The WPA could benefit infrastructure maintenance and capitol improvement projects while at the same time, begin establishing a work ethic/routine for parolees adjusting to the outside. "
I kind of think you missed my point here, if you don't mind me saying so. We already HAVE a 10% unemployment rate. A lot of those people are perfectly upstanding people who suffer from bad luck or low intelligence or whatever. People who really didn't do anything wrong. And I imagine, when you talk about coming up with a WPA for all these criminals, they're going to start wondering who THEY have to beat up to get a cushy government job. Don't you think they'll have a pretty good point?
Are you talking about the government literally creating enough construction jobs or whatever in order to reduce unemployment to zero? If so, I will leave you to your fantasies.
I'm also curious how you would get fired from one of these jobs. What if you just didn't show up? Or showed up but just didn't work? Would that be grounds for firing you? What then?
"All I can say for sure is, taking away driving privileges, justifiably or not, has serious ramifications for the person's chances at completing probation. Could the probation office provide a MTD shuttle to the substance abuse counseling appointment across town?"
You're in luck, Local. They have these. They are known as "buses", and they go by the Prairie Center, ACES, the courthouse, the police station, and every other landmark on the road to rehabilitation (do you like that? I honestly just made that up!) every half hour or so.
Now, Durso lives in Sidney, and the buses don't go out there. So, I can see where that would be difficult. But again, I'm sure he doesn't have to meet with his probation officer every day. He doesn't have ANYBODY who could give him a ride into town once in awhile? If that's true, then I really don't think he's going to get rehabilitated anyway, since his absolute isolation from the human race is going to take a severe toll on his mental health.
"Well, I want to believe a good job helps get rid of the temptation to get drunk or high or fistfight somebody."
I will merely point out again that the guy we're talking about, Durso, HAD a job. He even owns his own home, which is more than a lot of people can say. Didn't stop him, did it?
"As you have said before, "It's pretty rare that someone lives a decent, hard-working life, and then decides to start committing armed robberies at like the age of thirty.""
Yes, I did. And I said it in the context of pointing out that you sometimes can tell who's going to commit crimes in the future, and who isn't. Like I said before, I think that getting a job, keeping a job, and leading a law-abiding life takes a certain commitment and personality style. One that many criminals seem to lack. Maybe just handing them a job all of a sudden will get them to completely turn their lives around. I just don't think it's that easy.
OK, so I guess that's it for now. You're right, I really don't think we're arguing about much, really. A lot of times, I think the internet just makes it easier to shout and call each other names than is really helpful.
To Anon 4:20pm
TO ANON 4:20P.M.:
"You have to figure out what to do when you get bored (that's the killer for a LOT of people, not just drug addicts).
Going and getting another crack rock, on the other hand, is quite easy. And the one after that is even easier. And on and on it goes."
The Pavillion is over a 60%-success rate, one of the best in the state. Step 9 of the twelve step programs makes an exception to the rule when making amends to whomever we've harmed, "...except when to do so would injure them or others." Yes, it's hard. Yes, some people do kick the habits. Does incarceration need to occur to make this happen? I'm not so sure.
There may not be one size of treatment that fits all, but criminologists from every discipline and perspective need to go to the drawing board, and really quit underestimating the severity of the problem, and I give them the benefit of the doubt in that description. See article in this thread as to how our drug laws are applied. (And no, I don't believe chasing people down and throwing them in a cage is an effective way to curb drug and alcohol addiction.)
How is it someone gives up and gives in to the depravity of constant theft, numbness, and the violent greed of an 8 year old? It's a serious question that you've raised. There are some (how many?) who don't change no matter what is offered. What the percentage of people is who are like this, is the question still on the table. You say, "I suppose I don't really know the percentages, but I would imagine the majority probably are." [people residing in prison who don't ever give a shit.] and then you query me, "But why do you think that it's this huge percentage of the people in prison [that would benefit from alternatives to incarceration]? As I've said before, I've learned through our discussions that my evidence for believing there should be more alternatives to prison is based on limited personal experience. I would refer you to Anon 4:23pm's post from July 24, entitled, "don't judge unless you know the facts" in this thread above for better expertise than me. My original post under "The Ignorance and the Irony" stands as a serious question rather than an accusation that you are ignorant- which may be the result of emotional blogging (don't drive angry, kids at home).
I realize now it's my ignorance that is exposed, because sentencing, probation, punishment, rehabilitation, repeat offenders, predicting people's success and character, poverty, broken families, addiction, sexual abuse, rough neighborhoods, are way out of my knowledge-base. I understand better, why He says, "Vengeance is mine." because, as more exonerations occur, I don't think the earthlings are smart enough to exact justice, balancing mercy and punishment. I feel like we have both been arguing from positions of half-truths. The identity of who inmates are, why they are there, what's their history, where will they go- aren't questions you can avoid by hiding behind "I don't care, as long as they stay away from me because they all might rape or murder." I no longer think that's your position but it sure sounded like it at first in your original post from July 16, entitled, "Self-preservation.".
The fundamental question I have is this: is the criminal justice system throwing its net too wide, and punishing people too hard for too little, with little crime reduction? Which leads us to your pessimistic prediction:
You're not going to get rid of all crime. I mean, you know that, right? ...there was still no treatment for antisocial personality disorder.
Another reason I say the taxpayer money on prison is a rip-off- How is rehabilitation supposed to occur in this climate? Also, the effects these conditions have on justice in the courtroom is incredulous when crimes by middle school deans, dentists, college students, and cops get excused.
Is there no chance a violation of the ban to cruel and unusual punishment could win in the U.S. Supreme court? I fear it will take a popular politician's kid to be gang raped in a county jail cell to ever force correctional officials to deal with this. And how in the hell do inmates get a hold of illegal drugs while in prison? The drug war is disgusting- or a "waste" as you put it.
Good research project would be to study how many people arrested for crimes were employed at the time of their arrest? I don't know.
You say:
I think we should allow ibogaine treatment, though.
My jaw is dropping. Few, if anyone, knows about this remarkable African root. I asked a friend from Cameroon about Ibogaine, and he shook his head in dismay and said, "Europeans don't know what they are messing with." Nonetheless, further research is needed. Ironically, Champaign, Illinois hosts a scientist at the research park who is trying to create the world's first synthetic version of the Iboga plant. It would be quite a miracle if a magic bullet existed to instantly cure drug addiction.
What has been working most effective so far, as SAFE House, Restoration Urban Ministries, AA, and NA can attest to, is those addicts who 1) seek help from a Higher Power as they understood Them to be, and 2) have a support group going through the same experiences, along with a close confidant (sponsor) have the best chance of a durable recovery. Addicts helping to cure other addicts is a proven model for some success.
There exists a large percentage of on-and-off-again addicts in recovery, and there are functional addicts in denial, who probably make up over 50-60% of current drug and alcohol users combined.
The faith community has knowledge, the secular, governing probation office could stand to learn from. Likewise, there exists neurological and psychological data of what happens to brains grooved on chemicals everyday, and what it means to be experiencing a craving. Knowledge like this would help faith communities deal with the medical realities in front of them.
"The devil made me do it" is too foolish a nursery rhyme for some, and there are sometimes logical reasons for feelings. Breaking that stuff down, not always being alone during withdrawal, and being able to talk about what's really bothering you, is tough to go through and difficult programs to design and maintain. You are right, you gotta want to go through the gauntlet of reality to get to the other side of sobriety. Depression, self-delusion, and a hopeless outlook stand in the way- I assume for everybody.
I was taught by elders that 95% of people you meet are decent enough folks. 4% are perpetual assholes to some degree or another. 1% you never want to meet in an alley. How many then need to go to prison- 5% of the Illinois population? I don't know. I am not one to favor closing the criminal justice system- as you've assumed some are advocating for- but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Putting people in cages does nothing to reduce crime- that's my opinion. It's a devastating way to punish people though. So who really deserves the cage-treatment? With great embarrassment and regret, it's here where the predominantly white (98%?) legal and police community have made justice a race issue. There's one area to improve upon. You seem to agree there could be other improvements too:
"It boggles my mind that they don't treat assaults in prison as separate crimes.
You're also right about that kind of environment making you a much more hateful person. People join gangs in prison because they need protection from OTHER gangs, and the gangs in prison are pretty much race-based.
So yes, they do need to crack down on violence in prison."
How do you know the correlation doesn't come more from the fact that the kind of peoplelikely to become criminals aren't the kind of people likely to go out and find a job and do what it takes to keep it?
I think with creative thinking and good priorities in place, the government could easily find enough work for the 10% innocent unemployed, and all the returning inmates to society. There is so much to be done. You don't believe inmates would show up for work, however. You allow that, "Maybe just handing them a job all of a sudden will get them to completely turn their lives around. I just don't think it's that easy." And I would agree with you about the difficulty of the task at hand. That's why I think half-way programs need to be designed by successful citizens who have done time and re-integrated back into society.
I will merely point out again that the guy we're talking about, Durso, HAD a job. He even owns his own home, which is more than a lot of people can say. Didn't stop him [from driving drunk], did it? My beef with the Durso case is Durso was let out of prison under the MGT Push program. Durso then had two jobs after they let him out. When the Governor began looking stupid in the media, Durso was returned to prison for 34 days, and thus lost both of those jobs only because the Governor didn't want to be criticized anymore. It's a poor taxpayer buy, and it is capricious and arbitrary- my opinion. Is there such a thing as double jeopardy of incarceration?
I think that getting a job, keeping a job, and leading a law-abiding life takes a certain commitment and personality style. One that many criminals seem to lack. And that takes us back to where we started: Many criminals lack a certain commitment and personality style to keep a job and lead a law-abiding life, you say. I ask again, how many? and who are you calling a criminal? Which is where I am going to leave it. I learned alot from our unusually long debate, but this is what I appreciate about web journalism. Thanks for your participation.
Budgetary Implications of Marijuana Prohibition
<!-- left navigation bar -->
Read the executive summary of the report
Read the complete report
Endorsing Economists
In the News
About the Author
Further information about marijuana policy
Home
<!-- central text area -->
Milton Friedman, 500+ Economists Call for Marijuana Regulation Debate; New Report Projects $10-14 Billion Annual Savings and Revenues
Savings/Revenues Projected in New Study by Harvard Economist Could Pay For:
**Implementing Required Port Security Plans in Just One Year
**Securing Soviet-Era "Loose Nukes" in Under Three Years
Replacing marijuana prohibition with a system of taxation and regulation similar to that used for alcoholic beverages would produce combined savings and tax revenues of between $10 billion and $14 billion per year, finds a June 2005 report by Dr. Jeffrey Miron, visiting professor of economics at Harvard University.
The report has been endorsed by more than 530 distinguished economists, who have signed an open letter to President Bush and other public officials calling for "an open and honest debate about marijuana prohibition," adding, "We believe such a debate will favor a regime in which marijuana is legal but taxed and regulated like other goods."
Chief among the endorsing economists are three Nobel Laureates in economics: Dr. Milton Friedman of the Hoover Institute, Dr. George Akerlof of the University of California at Berkeley, and Dr. Vernon Smith of George Mason University.
Dr. Miron's paper, "The Budgetary Implications of Marijuana Prohibition," concludes:
**Replacing marijuana prohibition with a system of legal regulation would save approximately $7.7 billion in government expenditures on prohibition enforcement -- $2.4 billion at the federal level and $5.3 billion at the state and local levels.
**Revenue from taxation of marijuana sales would range from $2.4 billion per year if marijuana were taxed like ordinary consumer goods to $6.2 billion if it were taxed like alcohol or tobacco.
These impacts are considerable, according to the Marijuana Policy Project in Washington, D.C. For example, $14 billion in annual combined annual savings and revenues would cover the securing of all "loose nukes" in the former Soviet Union (estimated by former Assistant Secretary of Defense Lawrence Korb at $30 billion) in less than three years. Just one year's savings would cover the full cost of anti-terrorism port security measures required by the Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2002. The Coast Guard has estimated these costs, covering 3,150 port facilities and 9,200 vessels, at $7.3 billion total.
"As Milton Friedman and over 500 economists have now said, it's time for a serious debate about whether marijuana prohibition makes any sense," said Rob Kampia, executive director of the Marijuana Policy Project in Washington, D.C. "We know that prohibition hasn't kept marijuana away from kids, since year after year 85% of high school seniors tell government survey-takers that marijuana is 'easy to get.' Conservatives, especially, are beginning to ask whether we're getting our money's worth or simply throwing away billions of tax dollars that might be used to protect America from real threats like those unsecured Soviet-era nukes."
Use the links at the left to read the full report, see the open letter, or view the entire list of endorsing economists.
look up the record
look up Mr Durso's criminal and traffic record on the circuit clerk's site (don't know about what other counties may show...) It is obvious why he earned a prison sentence. it was over due.
It Seems You Already Answered the Question
I guessed 20%, but that seems too high compared to your guess(?) of: "Only about a sixth of the people currently in prison are in there for violent crimes."
Solutions Anyone?
From Anon 3:20pm's Human Psychology piece, a good question arises: "how do we make a change in the system? If I want to see 50% of the state budget go towards helping the poor and education (like that would ever happen), how do I get that done?"
What sticks for you?
1) Mr. Dolinar's financial analysis is correct. Something has got to give. Housing 45,000 people and the caseloads new police officers are generating nowadays against a state 13 Bil in the hole is unsustainable. That's the biggest chink in the armor. The Fraternal Order of Police in Springfield may be asking its members to generate as many criminal cases as possible so as to justify hiring more of our guys, and gals. Champaign County jumped from 5000 criminal prosecutions in 2004 under then-state's attorney, John Piland, and now in 2009, The Regional Planning Commission is reporting Champaign County processed over 10,000 criminal prosecutions for one year. How can we afford the zeal? Or is it the plain fact, people really are committing more crimes? Conspiracy Door #1 or Common Sense Door #2- whichever you choose, we can't afford the reality of just incarcerating people ad infinitum. Which is better to have more of: taxpayers or tax drainers. Inmates or Homeowners?
2) Expose sucessful programs (Like Hip Hop Detoxx, V.E.Y.A., Center for Women in Transition, One to One Mentoring, and The Oddessy Project to name a few) that prevent people from committing crimes: i.e. programs that get people off drugs, house them, train them, and employ people will reveal to politicians the cost saviings of addressing crime and proverty at the front end, rather than policing, prosecuting, and penalizing after the fact. But it will be an uphill battle against the police and correctional officer unions who don't want to lose their precious jobs.
3) Educate, Educate, Educate Your Politicians at every level. Big job. But if the Anti-Smoking Contigent could get cigarettes kicked out of taverns, anything is possible in America. The battle for message in the media is already very understood by law enforcement.
4) Repeal many of the bans on employment and barriers to financial aid for college that currently exist against felons. When you work or go to school, you don't have time, inclination, nor need to find a crooked way to get money.
Just a few guesses......
I'll bite.
1) Who says we can't afford it? Why not just raise taxes? I'd be perfectly OK with raising taxes to keep our streets safer.
Now, you might say that a tax increase is a political non-starter. You could be right. But then, apparently letting people out of prison early is too. So why advocate one politically unpopular thing and not another.
I suppose it is better to have more homeowners than inmates. Guess what? The average inmate is not in any position to buy a house. Houses are expensive. The only way a lot of them would ever be able to get a mortgage is to just start handing out mortgages to anyone who can fog a mirror. I can't remember. What happened the last time we tried that?
2) Yeah, in so much as any of that actually works, I'm all for it. Hey, why not? But who does all that stuff work for? Everybody, or just the people who really WANT to turn their lives around? I mean, look at Alcoholics Anonymous. That doesn't cost the state a dime. Nobody even knows how many lives it has saved over the years. If you look at it that way, it's the most successful self-help group ever. But you know what? Overall, its results are pretty dismal. The people it works for are the people who have the dedication to actually GO to all the meetings forever. In other words, it works great for the people who are really motivated to change. For the people who aren't, it doesn't. I wonder how well all those things you mentioned work. I mean, what about a kid who doesn't really want one-on-one mentoring? I bet you there are a lot of them out there. Are you going to force them? You could, I guess. I suspect it would work about as well as it does to force people to go to the Prairie Center for a few weeks after getting a DUI. For some of them, it works. But the majority just sit there for a couple hours, thinking "Yeah, yeah. Whatever.", then go home and have another beer.
It's not like there aren't services out there for people who want them. It's not like people don't know about them, either. Ask any wino you see in the street if he's ever heard of Alcoholics Anonymous. Or the Prairie Center or ACES. He has. He's heard about them a million times. Guess what? He doesn't really want to stop.
3) It's interesting that you are against punishing people for doing drugs, but for punishing people who let others smoke in their bar.
Wait, no. It isn't. It's fairly typical, actually.
4) Who says you don't have a need to find a crooked way to get money if you go to school? Do college students typically have a lot of money at hand? What's more, do you have any idea how many people in prison never even finished high school? That was free. They were ENCOURAGED to go, and they still didn't.
As far as employment goes, you could be right. I still don't think it's going to be that easy for ex-cons to find jobs. I mean, it's not like there's an overabundance of jobs out there, you know. They have a lot of competition. And imagine for a minute that you were the owner of a company. You've probably got a dozen applicants for every open job you've got. Who would you rather hire? The guy with the criminal record, or the guy without one?
You're right about it being a lot more work to live a decent life than a criminal one, though. That's probably the reason a lot of them don't want to do it.
Where's the Beef?
1) Who says we can't afford it? Why not just raise taxes? I'd be perfectly OK with raising taxes to keep our streets safer.
Too late for that. They've been raising taxes for years to build prisons.
There's no proof that throwing proportionally more people in prison than any other country in the world has anything to do with "keeping our streets safer."
There's lots of proof that prisons and the rest of the legal system in the U.S. actually foster and facilitate crime by mixing the dangerous with the misguided majority, then casting them all aside by imposing second class citizenship on those who've done their time. It's a waste of tax dollars and ineffective. The present system is reason for shame for anyone who believes in the principles our nation was founded on. And that doesn't even begin to address the second coming of slavery imposed due to political pandering for "drug war" in a society that has yet to overcome racism. You will shrilly deny the connection, so I'll just let you babble on.
Your other points are equally nonsensical and trite straw men for your immoral arguments.
Good day.
Oh really?
"Your other points are equally nonsensical and trite straw men for your immoral arguments."
So you really WOULD prefer to hire someone with a criminal record than someone without one? Drug treatment really DOES work for people who don't want it?
Wow. You're right! I'm just talking nonsense. Thanks for clearing that up.
Don't do drugs, kids. It really is that easy.
:D
Drug sentences create racial caste system
For some reason, the News-Gazette felt they needed to tone down the headline by changing it to something more palatable to their editors when they included it in today's paper. This title is the original one it appeared under in The Miami Herald. Despite the tired bleatings of a certain individual, the view that the "drug war' has utterly failed and its questionable methods reveal the racist nature when law enforcement officials get a blank check to continue applying in under circumstances that result in racially disparate ways. BTW, one of the states where Pitts is talking about where incarceration rates are 50 times higher for African-Americans happens to be -- drumroll, please -- Illinois.
Drug sentences create racial caste system
By Leonard Pitts lpitts@MiamiHerald.com
Huffman, president of the California Conference of the NAACP, recently declared support for an initiative that, if passed by voters in November, will decriminalize the use and possession of marijuana. Huffman sees it as a civil rights issue.
In response, Bishop Allen, founder of a religious social activism group called the International Faith-Based Coalition, has come out swinging. ``Why would the state NAACP advocate for blacks to stay high?'' he demanded last week at a news conference in Sacramento. ``It's going to cause crime to go up. There will be more drug babies.'' Allen wants Huffman to resign.
But Huffman is standing firm, both in resisting calls for her head and in framing this as an issue of racial justice. There is, she notes, a pronounced racial disparity in the enforcement of marijuana laws. She's right, of course. For that matter, there is a disparity in the enforcement of drug laws, period.
In 2007, according to the Department of Health and Human Services, 9.5 percent of blacks (about 3.6 million people) and 8.2 percent of whites (about 16 million) older than 12 reported using some form of illicit drug in the previous month. Yet though there are over four times as many white drug users as black ones, blacks represent better than half those in state prison on drug charges, according to The Sentencing Project. The same source says that though two-thirds of regular crack users are white or Latino, 82 percent of those sentenced in federal court for crack crimes are black. In some states, black men are jailed on drug charges at a rate 50 times higher than whites.
And so on.
So while the bishop hyperventilates about blacks ``staying'' high (?), he ignores a clearer and more present danger. As Michelle Alexander argues in her book, The New Jim Crow, those absurd sentencing rates, combined with laws making it legal to discriminate against even nonviolent former felons in hiring, housing and education, constitute nothing less than a new racial caste system.
Allen worries about a baby being born addicted to pot, but the likelier scenario is that she will be born to a father unable to secure a job so he can support her, an apartment for her to live in or an education so he can better himself for her -- all because he got caught with a joint ten years ago.
It is a cruel and ludicrous predicament. And apparently Huffman, like a growing number of cops, judges, DEA agents, pundits and even conservative icons like the late William F. Buckley, Jr. and Milton Friedman, has decided to call the War on Drugs what it is: a failure. It is time to find a better way, preferably one that emphasizes treatment over incarceration.
You'd think that would be a no-brainer. We have spent untold billions of dollars, ruined untold millions of lives and racked up the highest incarceration rate in the world to fight drug use. Yet, we saw casual drug use rise by 2,300 percent between 1970 and 2003, according to an advocacy group called LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition). And as drug use skyrocketed, we find that we have moved the needle on addiction not even an inch, up or down. All we have managed, and at a ruinous cost, is to re-learn the lesson of 1933 when alcohol Prohibition collapsed: you cannot jail or punish people out of wanting what they want.
I've never used drugs. I share Bishop Allen's antipathy toward them. But it seems silly and self-defeating to allow that reflexive antipathy to bind us to the same strategy that has failed for 30 years. By now, one thing should be obvious about our War on Drugs.
Drugs won.
© 2010 Miami Herald Media Company. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.miamiherald.com
Drugs Didn't Win, Fascism and Racism Did
I do disagree with Pitts on his last point. It's not drugs that have "won" under the existing sentence. Instead, it's arguably racist law enforcement which is the only winner here, because the current state of the law provides cover that allows them to claim they are just enforcing the law. The laws against marijuana were born in outright and blatant racism. They only continue because they provide cover for those who wish to crush the Constitution and Bill of Rights under their jackbooted-heel.
Myths vs Facts
MYTH: Marijuana is so dangerous it must remain illegal
http://www.saferchoice.org/
Biting Back
Biting Back
Okay. Let's raise taxes. And let's build/retro fit camps, farms, business enterprise zones, asylums and universities to replace the deteriorating prisons. I am for an investment in public safety, inmate and officer alike.
The average inmate is not in any position to buy a house. Houses are expensive. The only way a lot of them would ever be able to get a mortgage is to just start handing out mortgages to anyone who can fog a mirror.
So all those years while in prison were spent not earning at least a minimum wage and acquiring a savings to buy at least a car? That's okay to anybody? What a waste.
2) [On drug and employment counseling] But who does all that stuff work for? Everybody, or just the people who really WANT to turn their lives around? I mean, look at Alcoholics Anonymous. But you know what? Overall, its results are pretty dismal. The people it works for are the people who have the dedication to actually GO to all the meetings forever. In other words, it works great for the people who are really motivated to change. For the people who aren't, it doesn't. I suspect it would work about as well as it does to force people to go to the Prairie Center for a few weeks after getting a DUI. For some of them, it works. But the majority just sit there for a couple hours, thinking "Yeah, yeah. Whatever.", then go home and have another beer.
The majority just sit there thinking "Yeah, yeah, whatever."? Yikes. I can't imagine there is not one program invented that has a better than 50% success-rate, a rate at least higher than the 50% level the state is at.
It's not like there aren't services out there for people who want them. It's not like people don't know about them, either. Ask any wino you see in the street if he's ever heard of Alcoholics Anonymous. Or the Prairie Center or ACES. He has. He's heard about them a million times. Guess what? He doesn't really want to stop.
And this is the attitude of the majority of people convicted of crimes? I plead guilty to ignorance in the first degree to this fact.
3) It's interesting that you are against punishing people for doing drugs, but for punishing people who let others smoke in their bar.
I didn't state such a position. The example of the smoking ban in Illinois was an illustration of the possible. Perhaps the drug war could be ended if such improbable legislation like a smoking ban in taverns was accomplished, is what I meant to convey.
4) Who says you don't have a need to find a crooked way to get money if you go to school? Do college students typically have a lot of money at hand? What's more, do you have any idea how many people in prison never even finished high school? That was free. They were ENCOURAGED to go, and they still didn't.
Such a pessimistic outlook. Do we feel a majority of the under-25's are in such a hopeless state? There's no turning around for such people? I must be missing something, how many of the 45,000 inmates are of this shitty variety?
As far as employment goes, you could be right. I still don't think it's going to be that easy for ex-cons to find jobs. I mean, it's not like there's an overabundance of jobs out there, you know. They have a lot of competition. And imagine for a minute that you were the owner of a company. You've probably got a dozen applicants for every open job you've got. Who would you rather hire? The guy with the criminal record, or the guy without one?
You're right about it being a lot more work to live a decent life than a criminal one, though. That's probably the reason a lot of them don't want to do it. "Alot of them don't want to do it"- my main question is how many is this "alot of them"?
The Aforementioned Hit Job
20 from Champaign County part of release program
URBANA – State's Attorney Julia Rietz said she's aware of 20 inmates from Champaign County who won early release, and that information came from Dan Hynes' campaign staff.
"We are supposed to receive notice when people are released," Rietz said. "We do receive notices, but they don't have a big highlighted line saying this person is part of the governor's early release program."
Although none of those released early on Champaign County cases are particularly heinous criminals, Rietz said, many are repeat offenders.
"They're mostly felony driving while revoked (convictions). These are not first or second or third offenders," she said. "The Legislature created this process where the penalty increases as the offenses increase. If we don't want to follow that process or can't afford that process, then the Legislature needs to come up with a different plan because otherwise it's a joke."
"Just simply releasing people from prison without the necessary support in place in the long term doesn't save us anything," Rietz said. "In my opinion, the parole system is already seriously taxed."
Of the 20 names she received, two have been charged with crimes since being released – one for theft and one for residential burglary. A third offender came in contact with police but was not arrested. The report about the incident still has to be reviewed by Rietz's office to see if he should be charged.
Rietz said the governor's early-release program is causing her office to reconsider the sentences it recommends to include county jail time and probation.
"The problem with that is, our local resources are taxed also," she said. "We have made great effort to keep our numbers in the county jail down based on our own financial situation. It's going very well. We've been consistently below capacity."
And another....
Early release plan haunting Quinn
Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn just can't shake the early release prison scandal.
Years ago, former Texas U.S. Sen. Lloyd Bentsen, the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, was caught charging well-heeled lobbyists thousands of dollars just for the privilege of having breakfast with him.
Embarrassed by the disclosure, Bentsen lamented, "When I make a mistake, it's a doozy."
Gov. Pat Quinn could say the same thing. He embraced an early release program for state prison inmates, and the results continue to haunt him.
Bentsen was able to weather his political storm with a good-natured confession of misjudgment and a promise never to make a similar mistake again.
But while acknowledging the disastrous nature of the program and then suspending it, Quinn has been less than forthcoming about what he knew and when he knew it, attempting to shift all the blame to an underling, Department of Corrections Director Michael Randle.
Meanwhile, state Comptroller Dan Hynes is attacking Quinn mercilessly for the ill-advised early release program, and polls show Hynes is scoring points. What once looked like a runaway win for Quinn in the Feb. 2 Democratic Party primary now looks close, and getting closer. All the momentum is on Hynes' side.
So if Quinn loses, he can chalk it up to letting inmates – some of whom were convicted of violent crimes – out of prison after having served only a few weeks behind bars. The Associated Press, which broke this story in December, reports that the corrections department was able to justify pushing inmates out the door by suspending a DOC rule requiring a minimum stay of 61 days for all inmates and granting newly arrived inmates six months of unearned meritorious good time credit.
There's a lesson here about how government operates, one that justifies considerable skepticism about bureaucracies assigned to carry out government policy.
For starters, according to Quinn, the inmates selected for early release were supposed to be carefully selected, and those convicted of violent crimes forbidden from consideration. The DOC bureaucracy turned that rule on its head, giving good time sentence reductions to those who hadn't earned it and disregarding the order that inmates convicted of violent crimes were not to be considered.
DOC now says it released 1,745 prisoners under the so-called "MGT push" program, a figure that is higher than the figure of 1,718 Quinn acknowledged. Further, DOC's new figures show that, according to the AP, "the names of 250 new offenders were added and 223 who hadn't benefited from MGT Push were removed for a net increase of 27."
What's striking is that DOC is confused about who was let go and why, even though this was a special program initiated from the very top. The bureaucrats are blaming an antiquated computer system for their problem keeping track of who's who, but it speaks volumes about how sloppily this ill-advised program was run.
Of course, it never should have come to this. Releasing inmates early is bad policy, and bad policy is supposed to translate to bad politics for the elected official responsible.
In this case, that's Quinn, and the political timing could not be worse. He's compounded the problem with his incredible denials and his obfuscation of the facts. If Quinn goes down in the Feb. 2 primary, it'll be because his "MGT Push" program inadvertently pushed him out of office.
Brute Force Fails
This morning's guest on the 11am Focus on AM 580, Dr. Mark A.R. Kleiman, provided considerable fresh air to counter the stale arguments of the brute force boosters that have managed to fill our prisons with little to show for the massive expenditures involved in jailing more prisoners in the US than in any other country, including China. Here's a link to the show's annoucement:
http://will.illinois.edu/focus/interview/focus100720b/
The subject of the interview was Dr. Kleiman's new book, When Brute Force Fails:How to Have Less Crime and Less Punishment. The audio of the show should be posted soon at the WILL link.
From Kirkus Reviews
Other Reviews
“How vigorously should U.S. federal law enforcement agencies enforce the laws against dealing in marijuana? Here alternative means of enforcing marijuana laws at the federal level are identified and assessed. The analysis is presented in three parts. In the first, precisely what is at stake in marijuana consumption and dealing is identified--the size of the problem is estimated, and the criteria to be used in judging a policy recommendation are discussed. The second part develops a theory of drug dealing and its response to varying levels of enforcement pressure. In the remainder of the text, that theory is applied to the real world, and policy options currently available are examined. The conclusions are pessimistic with regard to the ability of federal enforcement to influence marijuana consumption. The analysis supports both a reduction in federal marijuana enforcement efforts and a redirection towards the most violent dealing groups.”–Sage Urban Studies Abstracts
“Mark Kleiman has written a thorough, if somewhat tedious, analysis of federal law enforcement policy options regarding marijuana. The genesis of this work began when he worked as a policy analyst with the U.S. Department of Justice. He is now with the Department of Criminal Justice Policy and Management at Harvard University. Kleiman includes many facts about American marijuana use in his book. For example, while 50-70 million Americans have tried marijuana, there are only about 18 million current users, including 4 million daily users. Federal marijuana enforcement efforts cost $636 million in 1986, and approximately $14 billion is spent annually on marijuana in the U.S Kleiman presents a number of major arguments against increased federal enforcement of laws prohibiting marijuana, including that it would: 1) increase the use of other drugs such as PCP and alcohol, 2) increase drug dealing and theft among adolescent users, and 3) increase the involvement of organized crime in the illicit distribution and sale of marijuana due to the attraction of greater profits. Regarding this last item, he argues that as enforcement efforts increase it gives people with a propensity for using violence and corruption a competitive advantage in the marijuana trade. Because Kleiman argues for a severe curtailment of federal law enforcement efforts against marijuana, it will stimulate the debate about the role of federal law with regard to marijuana.”–Journal of Contemporary Criminal Justice
good article
Excellent article. The "secret" terminology was pure political theater, thanks for noting that. IDOC has always had the ability to release inmates early, at their discretion. This is clearly stated in the Illinois Compiled Statutes! There was no more secrecy for MGT Push than there is when the average inmate is awarded the good time available to them via this legislation.
Also important to note, that the recidivism rate was no higher for the MGT Push group than it is for released inmates in general. Why should we expect the MGT Push group to be any better behaved or better supported by friends and family?
To the person who wrote that "releasing inmates early is bad policy", you obviously don't understand the reasoning behind early release. MGT Push aside, early release is EARNED. It causes most inmates to be far better behaved than they would be otherwise, which in turn creates a safer environment for the corrections officers and others who work in the prisons. Apparently you don't care about what they have to deal with.
Comment about the Fallibility of Drug Testing
People in the criminal justice system (and outside of the criminal justice system) don't understand the underlying probability models of drug testing. Drug tests aren't nearly as reliable as they're portrayed. There are two major causes for this problem:
1) People are exposed to thousands of different chemicals everyday. Some of these chemical are manufactured within the human body, while others are absorbed in various ways from the environment. Because there are so many chemicals in the blood or urine of each person, false alarms from drug testing are common place. It is not possible, in a laboratory setting, to validate a drug test in relation to thousands of these chemicals -- some of which are unknown or poorly understood. Therefore, if it is stated that a drug test is 95% reliable, it should be understood that this is the reliability of the test under controlled laboratory conditions. However, the criminal justice applies these tests to people in the real world, where many of the assumptions of these laboratory conditions have been violated to a greater or lesser degree. To use a simple example, consider this: Several million people in the United States are prescribed anti-depressants. Some of these anti-depressants stimulate the dopamine neurotransmitter system. For this group of anti-depressants, the human body eventually converts the prescribed drug via the liver into m-amphetamine ("meth") or a closely related amphetamine-like chemical before it is discharged from the body through urination. As a result, people on this group of prescription drugs can (and do) test positive for m-amphetamine. To a lesser extent, certain kinds of food (e.g., chocolate) also stimulate the dopamine neurotransmitter system. The stimulants in these foods are also transformed by the liver to amphetamine-related chemicals, and false positives from drug testing can result. I don't think people in the criminal justice system understand the full magnitude of this problem. As a result, innocent people are being sent to prison unnecessarily in the name of the "drug war."
2) To evaluate the reliability of a drug test in a given situation, it is necessary to know in advance the base rate of occurrence of the tested substance in the target population. Suppose that a drug test is determined to have 95% reliability in a controlled laboratory setting. This means that if a person is known to be taking m-amphetamine, there is a 95% probabilty that this person will test postive for the drug. This also means that for a person who is known NOT to be taking m-amphetamine, there is only a 5% chance that this person will test positive for the drug. A big problem arises, however, when you don't know in advance who is, and who is not, taking m-amphetamine in a real world setting. Suppose that among the general population, about 5% of this population is taking m-amphetamine at a given moment in time. You randomly select a group of people from this population and test them for the presence of this drug. Is this drug test still 95% reliable? Absolutely not! You have to apply the appropriate probability model to determine its reliabilty, which involves the use of Baye's Theorem. The true reliability of this drug test can be calcalated as follows:
Test Reliability = (95% x 5%) / P(+),
where P(+) is the probability of a positive test result for a member of the population. P(+) is calcalated as follows:
P(+) = P(f+) + P(t+) = (95% x 5%) + (5% x 95%) = 9.5%
where P(f+) = probability of a false positive
and P(t+) = probability of a true positive
Thus:
Test Reliability = (95% x 5%) / 9.5% = 50%
This means that the reliability of this drug test in this instance is only 50% -- no better than flipping a coin, or random chance! For more information about Baye's Theorem, see Wikipedia. It has a good example on the reliability of a drug test in an employment setting. However, even Baye's Theorem has a tendency to overestimate the reliability of a drug test across repeated applications because it makes the implicit assumption that the errors of the drug test are uncorrelated. However, in the real world, this idealized assumption is not necessarily valid because the errors can be correlated. This can happen when a test can't discriminate between consumption of m-amphetamine versus consumption of anti-depressants or chocolate, for example, as discussed in Problem #1 above. Other causes of correlated errors are defects in the manufacture of the tests, an employee at the lab fudging the results of the drug test, etc., etc.
Some commentators seem to think that the criminal justice system knows what it is doing when people are sent to prison because of a positive drug test. Trust me, this system doesn't have a clue about the underlying probability models of these drugs tests.
Let's Get Specific
Champaign County Probation "Services" conducts their drug-testing in a small bathroom. To get to it, you actually walk through the "lab" to get to it. I suppose some "probation services" manager thought this would be a good way to impress the oppressed about the "scientific basis" of being "serviced" by their office, so to speak.
A very dumb idea, at least if one is concerned about the accuracy of testing conducted by this facility.
Why?
Well the science behind the "testing" is pretty ironclad and accurate as far as detecting tiny traces of drugs, for what it's worth.
Then you have some some of the venal and stupid people who spend their time feeding news "tips" to the News-Gazette, gulping donuts, and enforcing what is supposedly 'justice" literally prove they don't give a damn about how accurate the testing is. Their only concern and goal is to get the maximum number of people to "test" wrong -- in their eyes.
Meanwhile, they trot this population of people through there, many of who might in fact actually be using drugs.
These "wise" people who "protect the public" by their meager, incompetent, and far too costly and ineffective efforts totally neglect the fact that all it takes is the slightest speck of illegal dust off someone else's clothes to be floating around in that "lab" when they hand you the magic cup for you to test positive - no matter what the facts actually are.
I'm rather surpised that none of the attorneys "protecting" the rights of their clients haven't raised a stink about this. The test appratus should be in an isolated, clean facility. Instead, it is exposed to contaminants on what is likely a daily basis. There is literally no way to make that room clean enough for these people to have any faith in their efforts. Frankly, they are probably too stupid to realise this is an issue and that fact that it overwhelmingly involves young black males who suffer only reinforces the existing prejudices that rule this system. You see, it's all so convenient for them and in your face for that machine to be there, which is about all that passes for the law for most of us in Champaign County.
One doesn't even need a grasp of statistical functions to figure out you're only going to get screwed down on "the plantation."
"Well the science behind the
"Well the science behind the "testing" is pretty ironclad and accurate as far as detecting tiny traces of drugs, for what it's worth."
I'm skeptical about that assertion -- you might want to visit some of the websites that say otherwise (they are all over the place). It's been asserted that if you eat a bagel that is coated with poppy seeds (which come from the opium poppy), then you can test positive for heroin and other opiate-derived drugs. That's one of the drawbacks of conducting a powerful test. The poppy seeds contain only trace amounts of opiates, however that can be enough to trigger a false positive. Of course, it's difficult to evaluate some of these claims. I do know, however, that some anti-depressants are converted into m-amphetamine and closely related chemicals in the human body via the liver, and it is not possible to discriminate these metabolic by-products from the street drug and its metabolic by-products because they are essentially identical. Undoubtedly there are many other examples. When it comes to the practice of science, quality counts.
Regarding Champaign County's drug testing procedures: Generally, it is unwise to allow a single lab to conduct all of the drug tests, and a single postive test result means nothing, for the reasons that I have already given. When you have only one lab conducting all of the tests, it is not possible to determine the reliability of the lab's results, which may be faulty because of contamination (as you have already indicated), faulty equipment and procedures, or employees fudging the results. It is ALWAYS necessary to use an independent lab to verify the results. Apparently this isn't being done -- which doesn't surprise me. I don't know why defense attorneys don't raise more objections about this -- because lawyers are not trained in scientific research methodology and mathematical modeling, it's quite possible that they are simply ignorant about the risks to their clients.
Personally, I've never been subjected to a drug test -- however, if a cop pulled me over and demanded that I take some kind of drug test, I would be absolutely terrified about the possibility of a false positive.
Ah, It's Not the Result That Matters, But What It Means
You maker excellent points. But what is the real meaning of a "false positive"? And exactly how could someone of limited means challenge a result they know is false?
There are lots of reasons for a false positive. The problem is that the powers that be will ALWAYS interpret such a result as simply positive -- and impose the penalties they believe should be the result. The person involved has little to no recourse.
Sure, someone could challenge the test result and demand a confirmatory retest. I have no idea whether that's even possible once you're in the clutches of the Probation "Services." You are assumed guilty. Small wonder that recidivism is a problem when the bar is set so low for evidence and when those running the system can only be imprioved by making it more draconian.
The public has been sold a bill of goods about many things with respect to the "justice" system. The one thing they should always remember is this is Illinois. What some public official may say has a lot more to do with what s/he belives will pander to the lowest common denominator. If you really think about it, no one would wish that some member of their family was subjected to such subjective and uinequitable treatment, whether or not they were guilty.
Tell Congress to Get Smart on Youth Crime Prevention
by Elisabeth Renter
They say your priorities are reflected in how you spend your money and time. If that's the case, consider the fact that California spends $216,000 per youth it locks up, but spends just $8,000 on each student in Oakland's public schools.
Right now, states across the nation spend far more to punish juvenile offenders than to prevent their criminal involvement in the first place. Especially as corrections budgets across the country explode, it's time to take a smarter stance on juvenile justice — before such youth turn into the next wave of incarcerated adults.
New legislation pending in Congress would do just that. In 2008, over 2 million kids were arrested by United States law enforcement agencies. The Youth Prison Reduction through Opportunities, Mentoring, Intervention, Support, and Education Act (Youth PROMISE) is designed to prevent such kids from entering the justice system in the first place. By providing at-risk youth with the tools necessary to avoid criminal behavior, this legislation would be a major step in breaking the vicious cycle of incarceration we've constructed.
Join other Change.org readers in telling Congress to pass this important legislation. Take a stand for this country's youth, who are often overlooked until it's too late.
<!--more-->
Entry into a life of crime and incarceration typically begins early. So as we choose to spend billions on prisons, rather than education, we're continuing to shuffle still more children into the system.
After all, it's easy to see youth in the juvenile justice system as a lost cause — social throwaways. It's easy to think of such kids as "not my problem" — because as long as they're not our kids, what do they matter? The fact is, though, that such kids are our neighbors, our potential future leaders and ultimately our collective responsibility. And it's far better to accept that responsibility now, in our schools and our cities, than when youth end up in our prisons.
Back in California, which boasts one of the nation's more lopsided prison-to-schools spending ratios, the need for the Youth PROMISE Act is clear. That's why the Los Angeles County sheriff recently testified before Congress, calling the Youth PROMISE Act "one of the most important pieces of legislation our nation could ever enact." After all, juvenile justice isn't just a California issue — it affects every community and state, whether you're a parent or just a taxpayer.
Show your support for the Youth PROMISE Act by signing the petition below. Let your representatives in Washington know that we value all of our country's children — and that we'd rather see them succeed than become just another statistic.
Tell Congress to Stand Up For Our Children
http://criminaljustice.change.org/
Intoxicated Drivers versus Non-Intoxicated Drivers
From some of the comments in the preceding discussion, it is clear that some people think intoxicated drivers (pass the blood limit for alcohol) are necessarily more dangerous on the road than non-intoxicated drivers. This is a very simplistic view of the world. In reality, some intoxicated people are better drivers than some non-intoxicated drivers. It is more accurate to regard these two groups of people in a distributional sense: think of a bell-shaped curve for intoxicated drivers, where they vary in their driving ability while intoxicated, and then think of a bell-shaped curve for non-intoxicated drivers, where they also vary in their driving ability while non-intoxicated. When the mean average of driving performance for non-intoxicated drivers is undoubtedly higher than the mean average of driving performance for intoxicated drivers, the tails of these two distributions overlap creating a "gray area" where some intoxicated drivers have better driving performance than some non-intoxicated drivers.
What are the implications of this? One implication is that our criminal justice system is sending intoxicated people to prison who are better drivers than people who are driving legally while not intoxicated (and who are consequently more dangerous on the road). This is clearly a nonsensical result, but nonetheless inevitable whenever people are convicted for crimes that society imagines they might commit in the future on the basis of a statistical average. However, a statistical average doesn't necessary apply to individual people: it is a simplistic stereotype.
14 Examples of Systemic Racism in the US Criminal Justice System
by Bill Quigley
The biggest crime in the U.S. criminal justice system is that it is a race-based institution where African-Americans are directly targeted and punished in a much more aggressive way than white people.
Saying the US criminal system is racist may be politically controversial in some circles. But the facts are overwhelming. No real debate about that. Below I set out numerous examples of these facts.
The question is – are these facts the mistakes of an otherwise good system, or are they evidence that the racist criminal justice system is working exactly as intended? Is the US criminal justice system operated to marginalize and control millions of African Americans?
Information on race is available for each step of the criminal justice system – from the use of drugs, police stops, arrests, getting out on bail, legal representation, jury selection, trial, sentencing, prison, parole and freedom. Look what these facts show.
One. The US has seen a surge in arrests and putting people in jail over the last four decades. Most of the reason is the war on drugs. Yet whites and blacks engage in drug offenses, possession and sales, at roughly comparable rates – according to a report on race and drug enforcement published by Human Rights Watch in May 2008. While African Americans comprise 13% of the US population and 14% of monthly drug users they are 37% of the people arrested for drug offenses – according to 2009 Congressional testimony by Marc Mauer of The Sentencing Project.
Two. The police stop blacks and Latinos at rates that are much higher than whites. In New York City, where people of color make up about half of the population, 80% of the NYPD stops were of blacks and Latinos. When whites were stopped, only 8% were frisked. When blacks and Latinos are stopped 85% were frisked according to information provided by the NYPD. The same is true most other places as well. In a California study, the ACLU found blacks are three times more likely to be stopped than whites.
Three. Since 1970, drug arrests have skyrocketed rising from 320,000 to close to 1.6 million according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics of the U.S. Department of Justice.
African Americans are arrested for drug offenses at rates 2 to 11 times higher than the rate for whites – according to a May 2009 report on disparity in drug arrests by Human Rights Watch.
Four. Once arrested, blacks are more likely to remain in prison awaiting trial than whites. For example, the New York state division of criminal justice did a 1995 review of disparities in processing felony arrests and found that in some parts of New York blacks are 33% more likely to be detained awaiting felony trials than whites facing felony trials.
Five. Once arrested, 80% of the people in the criminal justice system get a public defender for their lawyer. Race plays a big role here as well. Stop in any urban courtroom and look a the color of the people who are waiting for public defenders. Despite often heroic efforts by public defenders the system gives them much more work and much less money than the prosecution. The American Bar Association, not a radical bunch, reviewed the US public defender system in 2004 and concluded “All too often, defendants plead guilty, even if they are innocent, without really understanding their legal rights or what is occurring…The fundamental right to a lawyer that America assumes applies to everyone accused of criminal conduct effectively does not exist in practice for countless people across the US.”
Six. African Americans are frequently illegally excluded from criminal jury service according to a June 2010 study released by the Equal Justice Initiative. For example in Houston County, Alabama, 8 out of 10 African Americans qualified for jury service have been struck by prosecutors from serving on death penalty cases.
Seven. Trials are rare. Only 3 to 5 percent of criminal cases go to trial – the rest are plea bargained. Most African Americans defendants never get a trial. Most plea bargains consist of promise of a longer sentence if a person exercises their constitutional right to trial. As a result, people caught up in the system, as the American Bar Association points out, plead guilty even when innocent. Why? As one young man told me recently, “Who wouldn’t rather do three years for a crime they didn’t commit than risk twenty-five years for a crime they didn’t do?”
Eight. The U.S. Sentencing Commission reported in March 2010 that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10% longer than white offenders for the same crimes. Marc Mauer of the Sentencing Project reports African Americans are 21% more likely to receive mandatory minimum sentences than white defendants and 20% more like to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants.
Nine. The longer the sentence, the more likely it is that non-white people will be the ones getting it. A July 2009 report by the Sentencing Project found that two-thirds of the people in the US with life sentences are non-white. In New York, it is 83%.
Ten. As a result, African Americans, who are 13% of the population and 14% of drug users, are not only 37% of the people arrested for drugs but 56% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses. Marc Mauer May 2009 Congressional Testimony for The Sentencing Project.
Eleven. The US Bureau of Justice Statistics concludes that the chance of a black male born in 2001 of going to jail is 32% or 1 in three. Latino males have a 17% chance and white males have a 6% chance. Thus black boys are five times and Latino boys nearly three times as likely as white boys to go to jail.
Twelve. So, while African American juvenile youth is but 16% of the population, they are 28% of juvenile arrests, 37% of the youth in juvenile jails and 58% of the youth sent to adult prisons. 2009 Criminal Justice Primer, The Sentencing Project.
Thirteen. Remember that the US leads the world in putting our own people into jail and prison. The New York Times reported in 2008 that the US has five percent of the world’s population but a quarter of the world’s prisoners, over 2.3 million people behind bars, dwarfing other nations. The US rate of incarceration is five to eight times higher than other highly developed countries and black males are the largest percentage of inmates according to ABC News.
Fourteen. Even when released from prison, race continues to dominate. A study by Professor Devah Pager of the University of Wisconsin found that 17% of white job applicants with criminal records received call backs from employers while only 5% of black job applicants with criminal records received call backs. Race is so prominent in that study that whites with criminal records actually received better treatment than blacks without criminal records!
So, what conclusions do these facts lead to? The criminal justice system, from start to finish, is seriously racist.
Professor Michelle Alexander concludes that it is no coincidence that the criminal justice system ramped up its processing of African Americans just as the Jim Crow laws enforced since the age of slavery ended. Her book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness sees these facts as evidence of the new way the US has decided to control African Americans – a racialized system of social control. The stigma of criminality functions in much the same way as Jim Crow – creating legal boundaries between them and us, allowing legal discrimination against them, removing the right to vote from millions, and essentially warehousing a disposable population of unwanted people. She calls it a new caste system.
Poor whites and people of other ethnicity are also subjected to this system of social control. Because if poor whites or others get out of line, they will be given the worst possible treatment, they will be treated just like poor blacks.
Other critics like Professor Dylan Rodriguez see the criminal justice system as a key part of what he calls the domestic war on the marginalized. Because of globalization, he argues in his book Forced Passages, there is an excess of people in the US and elsewhere. “These people”, whether they are in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib or US jails and prisons, are not productive, are not needed, are not wanted and are not really entitled to the same human rights as the productive ones. They must be controlled and dominated for the safety of the productive. They must be intimidated into accepting their inferiority or they must be removed from the society of the productive.
This domestic war relies on the same technology that the US uses internationally. More and more we see the militarization of this country’s police. Likewise, the goals of the US justice system are the same as the US war on terror - domination and control by capture, immobilization, punishment and liquidation.
What to do?
Martin Luther King Jr., said we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values.
A radical approach to the US criminal justice system means we must go to the root of the problem. Not reform. Not better beds in better prisons. We are not called to only trim the leaves or prune the branches, but rip up this unjust system by its roots.
We are all entitled to safety. That is a human right everyone has a right to expect. But do we really think that continuing with a deeply racist system leading the world in incarcerating our children is making us safer?
It is time for every person interested in justice and safety to join in and dismantle this racist system. Should the US decriminalize drugs like marijuana? Should prisons be abolished? Should we expand the use of restorative justice? Can we create fair educational, medical and employment systems? All these questions and many more have to be seriously explored. Join a group like INCITE, Critical Resistance, the Center for Community Alternatives, Thousand Kites, or the California Prison Moratorium and work on it. As Professor Alexander says “Nothing short of a major social movement can dismantle this new caste system.”
Bill is Legal Director at the Center for Constitutional Rights and a law professor at Loyola University New Orleans. He is a Katrina survivor and has been active in human rights in Haiti for years with the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti.
OK.
Usually I don't respond to these, because it's so pointless, but I'm feeling bored today.
"Yet whites and blacks engage in drug offenses, possession and sales, at roughly comparable rates – according to a report on race and drug enforcement published by Human Rights Watch in May 2008. While African Americans comprise 13% of the US population and 14% of monthly drug users they are 37% of the people arrested for drug offenses – according to 2009 Congressional testimony by Marc Mauer of The Sentencing Project."
Yes, well, there are drug dealers and there are drug dealers. Some hippie going over to another hippie's house to buy a quarter-ounce of weed is not the same thing as an armed Gangster Disciple with a pocket full of crack rocks, on a street corner in broad daylight. For one thing, one of them is a lot easier to catch.
"Two. The police stop blacks and Latinos at rates that are much higher than whites. In New York City, where people of color make up about half of the population, 80% of the NYPD stops were of blacks and Latinos. When whites were stopped, only 8% were frisked. When blacks and Latinos are stopped 85% were frisked according to information provided by the NYPD. The same is true most other places as well. In a California study, the ACLU found blacks are three times more likely to be stopped than whites."
This is almost certainly because the police stop more people in high crime areas. If blacks and Latinos want to stop this disparity, they should see to it that their neighborhoods are not high-crime areas anymore.
Point Three is exactly the same as Point One.
"Four. Once arrested, blacks are more likely to remain in prison awaiting trial than whites. For example, the New York state division of criminal justice did a 1995 review of disparities in processing felony arrests and found that in some parts of New York blacks are 33% more likely to be detained awaiting felony trials than whites facing felony trials."
Does this take the severity of the crime into account? Betcha it doesn't.
"Five. Once arrested, 80% of the people in the criminal justice system get a public defender for their lawyer. Race plays a big role here as well. Stop in any urban courtroom and look a the color of the people who are waiting for public defenders. Despite often heroic efforts by public defenders the system gives them much more work and much less money than the prosecution."
This I believe. Is that really the fault of the system, though, or just the fact that blacks tend to have less money to hire a regular lawyer? If you want to blame someone, blame lawyers for charging so much.
"Six. African Americans are frequently illegally excluded from criminal jury service according to a June 2010 study released by the Equal Justice Initiative."
I'll buy this also. And you're right, that is too bad.
"Seven. Trials are rare. Only 3 to 5 percent of criminal cases go to trial – the rest are plea bargained. Most African Americans defendants never get a trial."
This is true, but if your numbers are correct, most white defendants never get a trial either. That's not really racism.
"Eight. The U.S. Sentencing Commission reported in March 2010 that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10% longer than white offenders for the same crimes. Marc Mauer of the Sentencing Project reports African Americans are 21% more likely to receive mandatory minimum sentences than white defendants and 20% more like to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants."
Does this take the history of past crimes into account? Nope.
Nine is the same point.
Ten is a combination of Eight and One.
Eleven and Twelve are just extrapolations from Point One.
"Remember that the US leads the world in putting our own people into jail and prison.'
We also lead the devoloped world in homicide, if I'm not mistaken.
"A study by Professor Devah Pager of the University of Wisconsin found that 17% of white job applicants with criminal records received call backs from employers while only 5% of black job applicants with criminal records received call backs."
One study, huh? Great. Not that I'm saying this is necessarily untrue, or that it's not bad. But it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the points.
"Should the US decriminalize drugs like marijuana?"
That wouldn't get rid of disparities. It would probably make them worse, in fact. The black homicide rate is, what, about nine times the white rate?
"Should prisons be abolished?"
See? I TOLD you there were people advocating this!
You know, it's a little weird when people talk about how the criminal justice system just goes and scoops up black kids and sends them to prison for the rest of their lives, and what a terrifying and inescapable thing the criminal justice system is. Apparently, though, a lot of black people don't agree. If they did, why would they even THINK of doing or selling drugs? Because it really is that easy. Don't mess around with drugs, and you won't go to prison for drugs. Maybe it's not fair to put people in prison for drugs, but come on. If it's THAT bad and every black person knew, there's no way they'd actually do them.
Easy to Figure You Out
"This is almost certainly because the police stop more people in high crime areas. If blacks and Latinos want to stop this disparity, they should see to it that their neighborhoods are not high-crime areas anymore."
Blame the victim? Yeah, that's a real logical coup there. You read the facts, you just perfer to ignore them. Most of the crap people object to is connected to the drug "war" compromising civil rights. White and blacks have roughly the same rates of drug abuse, but who fills the prisons? Yeah, the folks who have the SAME amount of drug abuse -- who happen to be black. Yep, let those black folks change their skin color and move and that will fix that, won't it?
The only circumstances I can see a statement like your making sense even to himself would be for someone to make it is because they are a racist.
BTW, anticipating your whining to come, everyone understands that the News-Gazette won't think it's racist and neither will 9 out of 10 or your white friends don't think so either.
I know, I know. The rest of your shtick is tired and untrue, too. You never address what others bring up, just doodle happy faces on the racist practices which you want to continue.
Definitely not in the meaning of the current slang term, but you are sick.
The Case For Data-Driven Justice
by Matt Kelley
Crime-tracking and mapping software like CompStat has changed policing. So when will the data revolution reach our courts?
In an excellent New York Times op-ed, Amy Bach writes that while we use sophisticated statistics to assess schools and hospitals and set overall public policy, our courts are still stuck in the Stone Age. They operate as the legal equivalents of obsolete, wood-paneled vacuums — missing countless chances to learn from the successes and failures of other courts. And it doesn't need to be this way.
To change the system, Bach (author of Ordinary Injustice: How America Holds Court) proposes creating a "justice index" to measure local courts on issues like cost, recidivism, crime reduction and collateral consequences, including whether people lose their jobs or homes after contact with the criminal justice system.
It's a brilliant idea, and I hope courts and policy-makers are listening. Courts are meant to protect the public, and that means they should be helping to reduce crime and improving peoples' lives. Instead, we've come to expect that our court system exists as a dense bureaucracy riddled with inequalities and endless delays.
<!--more-->
The good news is that isolated courts exist there are that are experimenting and improving results through data analysis. Hawaii Judge Steven Alm, for example, looked at the data of cases before him and found that short, certain sentences actually prevent crime and make probation more effective. Likewise, UCLA Professor Mark Kleiman expands on this theme, offering more data in his book When Brute Force Fails. Bach makes the case for a nationwide data project — starting with the country's 25 biggest counties — so that we can concretely establish what types of probation are more effective and learn from counties that have actually succeeded in reducing cost and crime.
To be sure, at this point, the justice system is so thoroughly broken that any kind of substantive data analysis is seriously threatening. However, there's some real momentum behind the issue — particularly in light of the fact that the U.S. House has voted to support the National Criminal Justice Commission (which is now waiting for Senate approval). Data-driven justice is a great goal, but it the meantime, it needs people like you and me behind it.
Mat Kelley is the Online Communications Manager at the Innocence Project and a graduate of the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University.
http://criminaljustice.change.org
News-Gazette Right-Wing Take on Early Release
State prison release plan was a disaster from the start
Gov. Pat Quinn's stance on his administration's failed early prison release program: blame anyone or everyone but me.
Eight months ago, an embarrassed Gov. Pat Quinn pulled the plug on an early prison release program that had been revealed as a fiasco and appointed a commission to study the matter and report its findings.
Last week, the commission released its report, concluding the "MGT (meritorious good time) Push" program was a fiasco. In other words, it took eight months for investigators to tell the public what it already knew: a bureaucratic effort to save money by releasing prison inmates early degenerated into a mindless effort to show people out the door regardless of whether they had served any significant time behind bars or posed a threat to the public.
Retired appellate judge Dennis Erickson, chairman of the commission, described the effort as a "total failure."
"It failed in its basic purpose, which was to help rehabilitate, to protect the public, to deter crime."
If Gov. Quinn dodged a bullet with the report's finding, it was no accident and completely undeserved.
Quinn has been all over the lot about what he knew about MGT Push and when he knew it. His latest stance is that he knew nothing, even if his closest aides knew all about it, and that DOC Director Michael Randle, the designated fall guy, is completely to blame.
Hey, this is Illinois. Surely, you didn't expect real accountability.
The MGT Push program was one of two early release programs implemented at the same time, one announced publicly by Quinn that was aimed at releasing non-violent offenders approaching the end of their sentences. He said they would be closely monitored after their release to ensure public safety.
The second program, MGT Push, was not announced until the Associated Press, tipped off by sources inside the corrections department, reported that more than 1,000 inmates – many convicted of violent offenses – were being released by DOC almost as soon as they arrived to begin serving their sentence.
DOC justified the MGT releases by awarding six months of meritorious good time to inmates when they arrived, ignoring requirements that inmates have to earn their good time and must serve at least 61 days in prison before qualifying for good time. Under MGT Push, the good time was automatically granted and many inmates served only a few days in prison before being turned loose.
If the goal was to carefully select deserving inmates who could be returned to their communities with minimal risk, the reality was that mindless bureaucrats were simply pushing people out the door to reduce the state's prison population.
That's been tried before and proved a disaster before. If it's tried again sometime down the line, it will be another disaster. Bureaucracies trying to achieve conflicting goals (reduce population and ensure public safety) will always opt to achieve the easier of the goals (simply let people go).
In overseeing this maladministration of Illinois law, Quinn handed his electoral opponents a good issue.
Democratic state Comptroller Dan Hynes almost rode it to victory over Quinn in the Feb. 2 primary election. Now Republican Bill Brady is using MGT Push as evidence that Quinn is not up to the job as chief executive.
MGT Push is, of course, just one issue in a governor's race in which the state's precarious financial status is the top priority.
But Quinn has mishandled MGT Push from the start. He has been less than forthright in acknowledging what he knew and taking responsibility for it. Instead, he has heaped the blame on DOC Director Randle, the prison chief he personally hired for the job. But anyway one looks at it, Quinn dropped the ball.
Post new comment