Critique of SA Rietz's Summary of ISP Investigation of Carrington Killing by CPD Officer Norbits
These are some initial thoughts on State's Attorney Julia Rietz's summary of the Illinois State Police's report of their investigation into the killing of Kiwane Carrington early in the afternoon of Oct. 9, 2009 on West Vine St. by Champaign Police Department Officer Dan Norbits.
The original call was made to the CPD front desk, NOT as a 911 call as was originally reported in some of the media. The call was made anonymously and the info was relayed to METCAD. The caller was located after the shooting and made a statement at that time to CPD.
The caller reported 3 persons, but no more than 2 were seen by the police responding to the scene. This might account for the concern about a possible 3rd suspect being around or in the house, but it seems to not account for the breaking of the back door and entering of the house and its subsequent ransacking by the police after the shooting.
Or does CPD ALWAYS do that at the homes of African-Americans? None of that is referred to by Rietz in her report, although it is clear that the back door was not opened by the teens nor did they enter the house before the shooting, so whatever entering and damage does appear to have been at the hands of CPD. Frankly, those involved with that at CPD should have been charged with that crime. Those acts committed by CPD are all the more reprehensible given the traumatic acts that occured that afternoon.
It appears that from the time of Chief Finney's arrival -- he was the first officer there by all reports -- to the shot being fired that killed Kiwane was less than a minute and a half. Finney had on street clothes, with a black jacket with only a police badge on it to identify himself, other than a gun and radio he was carrying.
The surving teen walked toward Finney as Finney yelled at both of them to get down. As he arrived, Norbits went around Finney and engaged Kiwane, which must have been seen by Kiwane as an aggressive move by Kiwane, given that Kiwane was simply standing there. True, Kiwane wasn't getting down, but it was a confusing moment for all involved, as is obvious in Rietz's summary.
Rather oddly, there is more about what Finney is paying attention to, which was what was going on between Norbits and Kiwane, even though it seems that the surviving teen is actually more interested in leaving the area than Kiwane, who by Finney's account was just standing there prior to Norbits rushing past Finney.
In some sense, it appears that Finney is reconstructing a memory afterwards to suit the needs of what happens next, rather than what really happened at the time. If you're struggling with someone in such a situation, wouldn't you be paying attention to the guy you're engaged with, rather than the other guys? That's just one of the rather odd things about the selective memory in this report.
At least the next thing that Finney says makes sense. He says he tries to put some distance between his guy and himself so he can holster his weapon and prepare to engage him to cuff him. At that point, Finney hears the shot, but doesn't know who was shooting or who was shot.
This is where the stories really diverge.
Norbits says when he arrived, he heard Finney warn someone to get down or he would shoot. Finney's account doesn't square with this or at least Rietz's summary doesn't show that it does. However, Norbits' account may be self-serving, as it was taken under a "Garrity rights" provision where he must make a statement or risk termination. There is also a rather large disparity in power between a patrol officer and a police chief involved here, too.
Finney did have his gun out, but he is not recorded by Rietz as stating that he would shoot. However, Norbits remembers Finney saying that, which would have given Norbits reason to escalate the level of his alertness and response as he approached from around the corner, perhaps to deal with a weapon that was not yet in his view, but which might have been within Finney's.
Norbits seems unclear about what happened, other than that Kiwane was not reaching for Norbits' weapon and that Norbits was "trying...to do two things at once." The problem is that when you are handling your weapon, you need to make control of your weapon the first priority.
The weapon involved was a Glock 45, which does not have a typical safety. Instead, its safety mechanism is built into the trigger mechanism. As the trigger is pulled, it releases the internal safety and then cocks the trigger, firing the weapon as the trigger reaches full travel. Having trained with a Glock, but never regularly used one, it was emphasized to me that the standard procedure to keep one's trigger finger outside of the trigger guard must be concientiously followed in order to prevent accidental discharge when handling and ausing the Glock. It appears that failure to follow this basic rule on the part of Norbits cost Kiwane his life that day in the heat of the few moments of the brief, confusing confrontation after the officers' arrival.
Rather oddly, given the recording of a close struggle between Norbits and Kiwane that Rietz recounts in her summary, the autopsy report indicates that "Dr. Denton observed no evidence of close range firing. In a follow up phone conversation, Dr. Denton indicated that he defines close range firing as less than 18 to 24 inches."
No further tests were done on either Kiwane's clothing or on Norbits' clothing. Another case of budget cuts or just sloppy police work? Who knows, but it would seem to be something that should have been done. One would hope that the clothing of both is preserved so that the testing can be done at a later date, although this is not indicated by Rietz in her summary.
After considerable review of evidence gathered in the ISP report, Rietz draws her conclusions about how Illinois law relates to Kiwane's death. In most of it, I agree, at least as to what she reports without having the benefit of the full ISP report and relying simply on what she summarizes. However, I sharply disagree with her on a single issue. She cites:
"We have also reviewed the investigation to determine if there is evidence to support charges of Involuntary Manslaughter. (Under Illinois law, Reckless Homicide is the same offense as Involuntary Manslaughter, but involves the operation of a motor vehicle.) 720 ILCS 5/9-3, Involuntary Manslaughter requires that an individual performs the acts that cause the death of another recklessly. Recklessness is defined in 720 ILCS 5/4-6 as the conscious disregard of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that is a gross deviation from the standard of care which a reasonable person would exercise in the situation."
Given that the only way that Officer Norbits' weapon could have discharged, given that it was checked and found to be in proper operating condition by ISP, it had to have been the case that Norbits had his finger inside the trigger guard of the Glock when he engaged in the struggle with Kiwane.
Given that Kiwane appears to have been immobile and had made no effort to flee nor fight prior to Norbits rushing by Finney to engage him, Norbits should have taken caution to either holster his weapon or to at least have taken his finger out of the trigger guard before engaging with Kiwane.
Any other action at that point was reckless within the definition of Illinois law and could have and appears to in fact did result in a discharge of Norbits' weapon. The euphemism that "Norbits' weapon discharged" is simply not credible. A gun that is in good working order will not discharge without the act of the person handling it. There is no evidence of anyone handling the weapon other than Officer Norbits. The resulting shot could have hit any of those present -- Norbits himself, Finney, one of the other responding officers, neighbors, the other teen -- but did in fact hit and kill Kiwane Carrington.
Ms. Rietz may feel that Kiwane's mild troubles with the law and that of his companion's are of some relevance, but they are in fact of little or no import here. Norbits' misapprehension of Finney's commands to the two youths as he came upon the scene are of significantly more relevance, but even that should have been overtaken by further attention as Norbits came upon the scene.
Officers have an affirmative duty to protect each other, but they also have a duty to protect the public and even potential worngdoers. They have no right to recklessly discharge their weapons by failing to observe basic rules of firearm safety and to then expect such actions to be written off as beneath public concern. There is enough evidence present to sustain an indictment for Involuntary Manslaughter under Illinois law. A jury should decide whether or not to apply the law under these circumstances, instead of state's attorney unilaterally preventing citizens from making that determination.
These observations are drawn from a summary written by Julia Rietz and posted by the News-Gazette at:
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2009/12/09/text_of_states_attorneys_report_summary
- 2226 reads
Except for one thing...
You conveniently left out the bit about Carrington putting his hands in his pockets as if he had a gun. In that situation you keep your finger on the trigger because you only have a split second to fire if a weapon appears. Police carry guns to deal with armed suspects. Carrington was only known to be unarmed in retrospect.
Half the Kids in This Town Should Be Shot? I Don't Think So
Warrior,
From reading the report, the remarks about hand movement are vague and give no particular indication that there was any perception on the part of Finney or Norbits that there was a perception of a weapon being perceived by them. Sure, take caution under the circumstances.
But, no, shooting the kid or even having the trigger finger inside the trigger guard?
You'd have to be prepared to shoot half the kids in this town. They all walk around like that, shuffling along with their pants falling down and their hands in their pockets. I am not going to shoot a kid because I don't like their fashion statement. I do think that a lot of the griping about them not obeying the police fast enough amounts to that, though.
And if you pop around the corner and suddenly start yelling at them in plainclothes like a maniac? Nope.
All this took place in a matter of seconds, at least the last little bit when things came down to engagement. The confusion among Finney and Norbits is palpable in Rietz's summary. Yet she onl;y takes this seriously on their part. She and all those who think those two kids should have immediately hit the bricks think THEY should've reacted perfectly are assuming two COMPLETELY inequitable standards of behavior that day from those involved. Think about that -- just a little -- please?
I know why Rietz is doing it. It's not fair, but at least consider that she does have a rather big bias. I left that out of my first read through and critique, but I am going to bring it in now, because it's only fair to all involved now.
There's also another thing going on, which was a very serious mistake on the part of Finney, who should know better and who showed seriously deficient leadership that day. If there are three suspects on scene, then WTF is he doing walking into it without waiting for backup? Has he got a hero complex or is he just stupid?
There was lots of backup just seconds behind his arrival. You set up at least a little perimeter coverage before you go walking into a situation like that. I know, believe me, I know. This was just plain stupid and it's a big part of the reason why Norbits made his mistakes. Norbits then went rushing by Finney, thinking he has to somehow deal with Kiwane to protect Finney.
Rietz's summary makes it obvious that Kiwane was essentially standing there. Maybe he wasn't hitting the deck, but he was still trying to figure out WTF was going on. He certainly wasn't making any obviously threatening moves either. Norbits had no reason to have his finger inside the trigger guard.
If there was no weapon visible and Norbits has his weapon drawn and at the ready with his finger properly placed, then he has the drop and time to react if one should begin to appear. To go past that point in the absence of a clear threat is bad training, reckless behavior, or both.
Thus, what happened then was reckless in my view. Rietz thinks differently. There's a big enough difference of opinion that a jury should decide, but Rietz doesn't want that to happen and -- guess what? -- she had the power to prevent that from happening and that is exactly what she has done by preempting any chance of that from happening, at least on state charges.
Did you even read the interview?
First of all...
"You'd have to be prepared to shoot half the kids in this town. They all walk around like that, shuffling along with their pants falling down and their hands in their pockets."
Yes, you would. That's true. If you were in the middle of arresting them, and they wouldn't keep their hands out of their pockets, you actually WOULD have to be prepared to shoot them, because you never know when they might bring it back out with a gun in it. Thanks for pointing that out.
"She and all those who think those two kids should have immediately hit the bricks think THEY should've reacted perfectly are assuming two COMPLETELY inequitable standards of behavior that day from those involved. Think about that -- just a little -- please?"
Yeah. I did. Did you read it? The kids weren't confused. Read the interviews. They actually PUSHED the kids down on the ground! But guess what? They GOT UP and kept struggling! This is not someone who doesn't know what is going on. This is someone who is resisting. Presumably because they are on probation and violating it not one, but three different ways, and doesn't want to get in trouble. Your bizarro conspiracy theories about these kids not knowing they were cops are completely ridiculous.
Keep in mind, this is NOT the first time either one of them has had an interaction with the police. They had both been arrested several times. They both know the score.
Keep in mind, also, that this is not the first time Kiwane resisted arrest. He had done it at least once before, and (wonder of wonders) those bloodthirsty, out-of-control cops didn't shoot him!
"Rietz's summary makes it obvious that Kiwane was essentially standing there. "
No, it doesn't. It makes it clear that he was struggling and pulling away from the officer.
"He certainly wasn't making any obviously threatening moves either."
Putting your hand in your pocket while an officer tells you to get on the ground is a threatening move. At least it has the potential to be one.
"Thus, what happened then was reckless in my view."
That would have been your view if they had Kiwane on film, threatening the officer with a machete. So who cares?
All the Way Through
Certainly. Read it all the way through. I'm just not predisposed to a whitewash of things like Ms. Rietz.
There are lots of vague references to the sorts of things that fits into the stereotype of the feral, threatening young black male.
If that is somehow persuasive to you, maybe that makes some difference. To some of the commenters that I've seen in various forums and letters to the editor in our community, that seems to matter a great deal. But that provides little to no solid evidence of a substantive threat to the officers on the scene that day.
To presume that it provides justification to fire one's weapon is bullshit, plain and simple.
In fact, your own words indict what happened. You write, "you actually WOULD have to be prepared to shoot them..."
OK, I'll buy that. That goes with the job. But you don't, because they don't produce a weapon. You are a professional. You know that a weapon is a heavy object and that it requires someone to pull it out and make at least an attempt at aiming it. And you have your trigger finger properly placed and can react as needed to defend yourself and any officers also on the scene.
Except in this case, you're bumbling around, not paying attention, acting recklessly under the definition of the law and your weapon discharges because you fail to follow proper procedure.
Maybe this is the only time. Maybe you've been acting sloppily a lot lately, because you get away with it and the culture of your department is to be aggressive and if things go wrong you can count on your chief, your mayor, your city manager, and the daily newspaper to all defend any sloppiness you might have. It's a bad day at the ranch, but it will all go away, right, because that's what they always tell you around the squad room table?
Except now it's your ass on the line, just like it's Kiwane's butt on the line, now that something happened that you didn't think would happen.
Tell us all why this is a good thing, why this is something to be defended.
You don't know these kids, but you're sure wishing one of them was alive right now, because it would sure be easier to hassle him the next time, than it will be to explain all of this away, to stuff the precious life force back into his body as it drains away.
And it's not helping that some morons think that trying to excuse it all away is going to help you...or CPD...or Champaign and its citizens.
So who cares?
I'll bet Officer Norbits cares.
And I'll bet a lot of folks in Champaign care once they get the bill for this tomfoolery.
And I'll bet that YOU would care if it were your son, because it could happen just as easily to him, no matter how well you've trained him to be respectful to authority. because in those precious few seconds, when you don't act carefully, some kid could die -- whether or not he has any record at all -- and won't be coming back. And you'll think that some idiot is so full of shit he just exploded all over his keyboard when he asked you...
Who cares?
I don't really have time for this now, but...
"There are lots of vague references to the sorts of things that fits into the stereotype of the feral, threatening young black male."
Well, unfortunately, there are lots of things about Kiwane's life that fit in with that stereotype as well. Primarily, his repeated arrests for aggravated battery and mob violence, as well as his membership in a gang. It's a little ridiculous to complain that the police treated him like some kind of gangbanger when he actually WAS one.
"But that provides little to no solid evidence of a substantive threat to the officers on the scene that day."
True. If we assume that the police have X-Ray vision. They don't. The only thing they knew about these kids is that they were breaking into a house, and resisting arrest.
"But you don't, because they don't produce a weapon."
Correction. He hasn't YET produced a gun. But why does he keep rooting around in his pocket?
"You know that a weapon is a heavy object and that it requires someone to pull it out and make at least an attempt at aiming it. "
Nightwatch. Have you ever seen one of those old Raven Arms .25s? You could practically hide one of those in your closed fist. Heavy? What kind of physiological disorder do you think Kiwane had that he couldn't lift one of those? And you don't REALLY have to take that much time to aim a gun at someone you're standing about three feet away from.
"And you have your trigger finger properly placed and can react as needed to defend yourself and any officers also on the scene."
I'm sure he did. When he arrived. But Kiwane wouldn't stand still, and he kept struggling. When you're struggling with a kid who's trying to resist you, things happen. Fingers slip. You don't think it's at least CONCEIVABLE that Norbits's finger might slip off the guard and onto the trigger in the middle of a physical struggle like that? How strong do you think your finger would have to be to keep it from slipping the inch or so from the guard to the trigger in the middle of a physical struggle?
"And I'll bet that YOU would care if it were your son, because it could happen just as easily to him, no matter how well you've trained him to be respectful to authority."
Well, it's really not about being respectful to authority. It's about having an ounce of common sense.
Tell me, nightwatch. Do you remember that time, when you were a kid, when your parent(s) sat you down and explained to you that, when someone is pointing a gun at you, it's a really, really, REALLY bad idea to get into a physical altercation with them? Because, like, even if they're not INTENDING to shoot you, accidents happen, and guns go off.
No? You don't remember that? Neither do I. Neither does anyone else. I think this is because, from the moment you understood what a gun is, you realized how dumb that would be. A gun is a device that can kill you instantly, even at a distance, with nothing more than fingertip pressure. So, obviously, getting into a physical struggle with someone who is pointing one at you is suicidal.
Now, apparently, this kid didn't understand this. Now he is dead. Too bad, but in the grand scheme of things, well... there are people who are TRYING to live good lives and do the right thing, and still can't get by. People who do everything they can in life, and still can't succeed. So How much time should I spend worrying about this kid, really?
I mean, my parents never had to tell me not to start a fire IN MY OWN BEDROOM either. This kid was either more severely troubled than anyone has been letting on, or he was one of those people who is just so severely destructive that he doesn't even care what the consequences are.
"Who cares?"
I was asking who cares about your opinion. And the answer is still nobody. You think that the police were wrong in this situation. You ALWAYS think the police are wrong, in every situation. Probably even some that don't involve the police at all. You're like the boy who cried "police misconduct". So yeah, nobody really cares.
Reflection
After sleeping on it I have realized some uncomfortable truths.
I feel bad for posting Kiwane's police record. To suggest that his past in any way justified his treatment that day is wrong. I wasn't suggesting it, but it does read that way.
I think my own bias against CUCPJ has affected my ability to be objective, and it has certainly distracted from my main intent, which is to heal our community.
To fix things we have to figure out what is broken. We will never all agree on whether Norbits was at fault, but we can come together on other issues to make progress.
One point that Nightwatch and I agree on is that it's nearly impossible to imagine that the Glock 27 pistol discharged unless the officer's finger was on the trigger. This troubles me.
The Glock line of pistols is notorious for accidental injuries, particularly to police officers not familiar with it's "Glock Safe-Action" system. Many officers have unintentionally shot themselves in the leg while drawing this pistol with sloppy technique.
http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm
Unfortunately the most popular pistol on the market now, the Springfield XD, uses the same type of system.
Essentially these pistols have no external safety mechanism. In order to function properly a cartridge has to be "in battery" or in the chamber, and the firing pin/striker mechanism has to be 'cocked' and under tension. There is no hammer or other external control except for the trigger.
When in a holster the Glock is supremely safe. Three internal mechanisms prevent accidental firing, even when subjected to dropping or harsh impact. They simply will not fire until a finger is placed on the trigger.
The Glock trigger has a small protruding lever that disengages all the internal safeties when the finger is placed on the trigger. Once a finger or other object enters the trigger guard there is nothing to prevent the gun from being fired.
Firearms training, particularly defensive firearms training, emphasizes over and over that the finger should be indexed along the slide (outside of the trigger guard) until a determination is made that deadly force should be used.
At some point in this incident an object entered the trigger guard causing the weapon to fire. I don't think anyone can dispute this. Even those of us who are defending the CPD have to admit that in all likelihood it was Norbits' finger that caused the gun to discharge.
This is a tiny part of the whole picture, but I think in evaluating the steps to prevent this type of incident perhaps it bears looking into.
Finally I just want to apologize for letting my personal feelings influence my posts. It's not constructive for me to air my bias if I really want to fix this problem.
We Should All Learn from This
Blowback,
I'm sure we'll never agree on everything about this. But I do appreciate that you're willing to be more thoughtful about considering that there is a lot more to be learned from this than some of the discussion so far would lead people to think.
Nothing we do now can bring Kiwane back. The only thing we can do -- everyone on whatever side we've found ourselves in this discussion up to this point -- is to try to find ways to keep it from happening to someone else, no matter who they are, no matter what the shade of their skin, no matter what neighborhood, no matter if their pants are sagging or they are in a uniform.
You may not agree with how CUCPJ sees things or how they ask others to consider things. I do think that they genuinely want to try to change things that need changing. I also don't think that any of them hate the police. Like me, I am certain that they do hate some of the things that are happening in our community and some of those things involve the police -- and prosecutors and judges. But they don't hate the people involved.
We seem to have festishism for the law and personal responsibility in our society. And I generally am OK with those as idealized concepts, if you've been lucky enough to grow up in a family where you've had the benefit of the material wealth and social graces that let you learn from that.
But we also now have a society that seeks to punish people for the gain of politicians. We really need to step back from that. For one, Kiwane's "record." I bring it up again, not to flame you, but to note a point that we should all reflect on. I knew lots of kids growing up who had "records" that long before they even got to high school.Most of them eventually grew up to be OK people. And the ones that didn't still turned out to not be major crooks. I am sure that getting sent to the big house because of what they did would have changed that, however. Prison makes more criminals than the streets do in a lot of cases.
But that was before computers and before we as a society seemed to want to stick people with their pasts in every way we possibly could. I think we are doing as much or more to create criminals in this way than "bad families" are, quite frankly. Are kids really that much worse now? I really don't think so. I think we've let politicians get away with creating uch a system -- for the benefit of politicians.
Champaign County is especially notorius for this across Illinois, which is a state that has a national reputation for bad government in other ways. We'd all be better off to step back and ask -- Is this wise, appropriate and a good and effective use of our limited resources? Is it even humane? These are bigger issues than the death of one kid who it seems that not just his community, but society as a whole, let down.
But Kiwane's death, as tragic as it is, will only be all the more tragic if we don't honor his memory by trying to keep any other kid from being the next Kiwane. Not to keep simply from getting shot, which is damn important, but from building a better system, one that doesn't do its best to keep a record to railroad kids into the lockup, but does its best to help a kid to find his or her feet, find a decent education and a job that they really can look forward to so the streets aren't a better attarction. That's what's missing right now. It's a much bigger issue than Champaign County can do on its own, but we need to start somewhere and not simply expect "those people" in Springfield or Washington DC to do it.
And frankly, some of it has to do with the police. There is a certain culture at CPD that just isn't present or at least doesn't rule in other local departments. They need to reflect on this. I'm sure there are a number of good cops there. But there are some who think its "us vs them." If they want a job like that, there are wars going on, unfortunately, and I hear that the Army is still looking for help. We don't need that sort of thing in our community.
We should not be at war with ourselves. Those sort of presumptions lead to bad decisions. The police have a dangerous job. A big part of doing it right is to descalate violent situations. I relaize that sometimes they have no choice because they do confront a violent situation and that sometimes that choice has to be made in a split second. But those choices are best made with a cool head, not a hot head. And I'm not saying that was what happened that fatal day in October.
Reading through that summary, I see more confusion than anything. And that tells me that training and reflexes took over. And that tells me that something is wrong with that in CPD, because the officer involved made bad decisions that were built into his response. Unfortunately, under our legal system, CPD can't be put into the dock in court. It's down to Norbits. All the bad decisions and previous bad policy, thumbing of CPD's nose at community concerns, and just plain telling people to kiss the ground that CPD walks on falls on Norbits' shoulders now. For better or for worse.
And the decision that there will be no legal closure just kicks that ball down the road. Ms. Rietz thinks this is the right thing to do. She's only putting off the day of reckoning. We can sit here now and, fortunately, have a mostly reasonably productive discussion. But that won't solve anything without a lot of hard work and her refusal to address this legally just made that twice as hard on the rest of us and, I think, on Norbits, too.
Critique Critique
1 - Kiwane is ignored and abandoned by his family and the "black" community for 15 years.
2 - Kiwane gets in trouble with the law repeatedly - still no family role models
3 - Kiwane habitually skips school
4 - Kiwane smoked pot on Oct 9
5 - Kiwane was committing a felony when police arrived
6 - Kiwane ignored a lawful order given by a police officer
7 - Kiwane reached into his pockets
8 - Kiwane fought the police officer
9 - CUCPJ fought tooth and nail against less-lethal weapons, like tasers, that would have saved Kiwane's life. By denying less-lethal technology to the police you force them into using the only option available - lethal force.
If I used the same kind of twisted logic that CUCPJ and IMC use then it's obvious that CUCPJ is responsible for Kiwane's death by taking away tools that give law enforcement options.
---
Instead of focusing on the first 15 years that led up to this incident you malcontents focus instead on the last 45 seconds of his life.
Where the hell were you for the last 15 years? Where was his family?
The fact is nobody gave a damn about Kiwane until he died. Now his memory has cheapened by becoming a poster and a slogan.
Your questions have been answered.
Kiwane is dead because the "community" killed him. The "community" abandoned their responsibility to provide this child with a safe and loving home, guidance, nurturing and positive role models.
Instead he was ignored, neglected and ultimately died because he was totally and utterly unprepared to live in a community of laws.
----
Finally, I have worked in public safety for 18 years. In that time I've witnessed people dying in front of me from illness and injury, from heart disease to gunshots.
I have been on the nasty end of a loaded weapon more than once. I've been threatened, assaulted and disparaged by thankless patients that I took an oath to serve.
Over and over I have been thrust into the violent and uncontrolled environment like this incident.
Burglary calls in progress are deadly to police officers. The reason they command everyone to stop and get down is so they can secure the scene and find out what's going on.
If Kiwane and his friend had obeyed police orders they would have been questioned, the owner would have been called to confirm their story and they would have either been let go or charged with a misdemeanor.
There is a TIME and a PLACE to fight police injustice. It's not at the scene.
---
Finally, you have no evidence that Norbits' finger was inside the trigger guard of the Glock. It could have been Kiwane's finger. It could have been any foreign object encountered in the fight.
I agree in all likelihood that Norbits' finger probably caused the shooting, and I agree that it was probably irresponsible and reckless, but it was not homicide.
Some Thoughts in Four Parts
!. "Less Lethal Weapons"? This was not a situation wheree they would have been used. And I don't think that dredging up Kiwane's minor problems would have kept him from getting shot or tazed under the circumstances anyway. Plus, given both the Champaign city council's miserly approach to city services other than law enforcement and the massive cutbacks in soocial services, don't you think that might have had just a teeny little bit to do with the outcome of Kiwane's life, maybe? CUCPJ and many other groups in our community and beyond have fought for increases in those services, only to be rsisted by people who spend their time worrying about the fact that we're still not spending enough money on prisons and cops and too much on "welfare"?
2. The community didn't pull that trigger. Lots of people in this community volunteer in programs that substitute for programs that have been cut as funding is diverted to prisons, police and war. Good paying jobs have been shipped overseas, because that sort of thing is "good for our economy." I guess maybe it's not so good for our community after all.
3. Thanks for your service. Maybe you were smart enough not to rush into burglary in process calls before you had backup. That could be because you actually served on the street, instead of in admin for too long, like Chief Finney. I understand what you're saying about cooperating, but read through Rietz's summary, then consider what you know, and what I said to Warrior above. Life isn't perfect and we should try to avoid having to say at the end of the day, "Sorry kid, you weren't fast enough today when we were all a little confused."
4. Read the report again for good measure and consider the things that were in it and what was left out and should have and need to be pursued, either through further investigation and lab work or in court. The interviews and physical evidence do NOT add up. There is no way that anyone's finger except Officr Norbits' could have been on the trigger of his Glock. No way, period. He pulled the trigger. Probably not intentionally. I would say recklessly, because he was trained otherwise. A jury might find it was accidentally. A jury should have the chance to decide that. Ms. Rietz should not preempt that process.
Thoughts
Rietz's report is only a short summary that addresses the limit of her responsibility, namely whether sufficient evidence existed to charge Norbits with a crime.
The actual investigation report is over 1000 pages long and includes transcripts, interviews, police car camera video and all the interviews with witnesses. Rietz' interpretation is moot in many ways. I also think she could have been more objective. Items like the pot smoking and school history don't have anything to do with the shooting being an accident.
This whole tragic incident also is an example of the dangers of tunnel-vision.
Finally, Ms. Rietz' job is to decide whether to send a case to a jury. Should she have recused herself in this instance and turned it over to an assistant? Probably. Who knows whether another attorney would have brought it to trial. I don't believe any criminal jury would have returned an unanimous guilty verdict on even involuntary manslaughter.
The civil court will be different I think. I don't believe a civil jury is required to consider proof beyond a "shadow of a doubt", only that a preponderence of evidence exists.
Sadly I predict the City will settle in return for silence and promises not to sue in the future.
Thank You
Thank you for writing these comments. I wanted to write something but your thoughts sum up exactly what I would have said. I would guess that most of CU citizens feel exactly the same.
worth a read
http://www.smilepolitely.com/opinion/the_problem_with_moving_on_after_carrington/
Documents Linked on NG site
N-G is releasing reports and files from the ISP Report.
It sounds like Rietz' characterization of Kiwane seems mild compared to his criminal record.
- Retail Theft
- Theft
- Theft
- Possession of cannabis while at Jefferson Middle School
- Kicking in a glass door of Columbia School
- Resisting/Running from Police
- Battery of another student with his fist. Twice.
- Aggravated Battery/Mob Action - Group beating of two people
- Possession of Cannabis and Liquore
- Gang-Related Battery
- Arson of his own bedroom
- Self-Proclaimed member of North End Gorillaz gang with confirmation by his guardian on Sept 19, 2009, of his continued involvement.
- Co-actor at 906 Vine was also a documented gang member.
Don't get me wrong. He didn't deserve to die. It was an accident.
Where was his family and community those first 15 years?
Don't get me wrong. He
Don't get me wrong. He didn't deserve to die. It was an accident.
No, I guess I won't. He didn't deserve to die. And there really isn't much point in reposting his really rather minor record. I guess it gives you some kind of satisfaction that your tax dollars are hard at work, making sure that some kid is getting railroaded into a life where he'll be institutionalized. Then you'll be able to wring your hands some more about the moral failings of his home and community.
Yep, that sure helps. And it's no accident that you've reposted it here, now that you're done making false accusations about CUCPJ. It's easy to see where your heart lies.
really rather minor???
One of those offences might be minor, but ten of them is a pattern and those are just the instances where he was involved with the law. A documented record of reckless behavior in the past makes the descriptions of his behavior more credible, so it is relevant to the report. It also counters all the talk about how great the kid was that was put out before.
Yeah, Posted Just for the Truthiness?
Blowback,
I don't understand your point here. And Warrior, I don't understand you joining in this sordid tabloid nonsense. It really is demeaning and I am not talking about the memory of Kiwane Carrington. Let me tell you why.
First, I don't believe Blowback's [what a ironic nick, considering the nature of the last 8 years of American politics...] dissumulation.
Just an accident?
Then why bring any of this up again now. It's already been talked about and linked to over and over, like someone else noted. I think the subtext here is that some just want to keep emphasizing that maybe Kiwane needed killing.
Don't get them wrong indeed.
And where does that leave Norbits? Did he think Kiwane needed killing that day? No, I don't think so and I'm certain that no one else who has raised their concerns about what happened thinks he thought so either.
Not Kiwane's kin, not CUCPJ, not the ministers, not the kids.
Do people think that Norbits was reckless with Kiwane's life?
Heck yes. Hell yes. I think so and a lot of other people think so. And that is really what happened that day and the whole 15 years of his life, right up to the time when Norbits was not paying attention to WTF he was doing with his Glock.
Ms. Rietz doesn't think so.
She thinks Norbits was just having a bad day at the office.
OK, but let's let a jury decide.
Nope, Ms Rietz has already decided. That's what this is all about. She thinks that Blowback is right, that it's OK to blame all those folks being careless the first 15 years of Kiwane's life, but no one about the last 15 seconds, except maybe Kiwane.
And all CUCPJ and his kin want is to give the public the right to decide about that last 15 seconds.
Was Norbits reckless?
Or was Norbits just clumsy?
Good question. I don't know for certain. But I'm honest enough to say I can't say for certain right now. I want to see all the evidence and certainly better than what has been done so far. I'm honest enough to not play God here. Ms. Rietz thinks she can. Good for her. I couldn't live with myself based on what she's written.
If I was Norbitz, I couldn't either. I would rather let someone else decide right now. In ten years, heck even in ten days, I'd feel better about it than living with that question mark following me around over my head.
I can tell you one thing, if I were Norbits, though, I'd wish to have more closure than that summary. It does Norbits no favors in that respect.
I'd also feel a lot better about my buddies, some random citizens, a troll, some kid, whoever, who thinks he's somehow helping me, who keeps posting crap like the shit above, defending me by saying I did the right thing, trying to point out that Kiwane was bad enough that he needed to somehow die, that I just saved the state of Illinois some money, that it was better that Kiwane to just get on the right side of a dirt nap now, that he was just turning bad to worse to worst, that he was aleady a gangster, that he drank and smoked sometimes, that he freaked out around cops, that he had problems and his mom died and he just wanted to be left alone that afternoon before his blood started spilling when he was so confused and things started going black...
Don't you fuckers have any humanity for everybody involved here when you try to justify what happened that afternoon?
No matter what it was, it's clear now it was a fuck up, that it wasn't intentional, whether it was reckless or not, that Kiwane did nothing to deseve to die that day and that there is no need to defend what Norbits did?
YOU are sick if you think that the reason that kid got shot was because he wasn't sufficiently respectful of authority. It could be your kid next, unless YOU take home a lesson and make it clear that this should never happen again.
And you do Norbits no favors by making it out to somehow be the kid's fault.
what?
Mob action gang beatings are really rather minor?
They aren't if you are the person getting your ass beat by gang members.
If you read the crime reports it was his grandmother that said he needed to be institutionalized. She blamed JDC for "letting him go" and that they caused him to fall into a life of crime.
I get no satisfaction out of any of this. I'm just sick of CPD getting railroaded by CUCPJ over and over, being accused of murder, being accused of "THEY CAN KILL YOU FOR RUNNING AWAY!", et al.
What false accusation about CUCPJ did I make? I'd be glad to support it with evidence.
Oh, "evidence" is defined by wikipedia as testimony, exhibits and documentary material. You know, factual stuff and not just more emo whining.
Officer Norbits committed involuntary manslaughter
Some of the attempted justifications of Kiwane's fatal shooting are absurd. Who are these people?
First of all, the life history of Kiwane has no relevance to the evaluation of the fatal shooting.
Secondly, refusing to lie down on the ground does not justify shooting someone.
Thirdly, having one's hands in the pockets of one's pants does not justify shooting someone.
Fourthly, resisting arrest with non-lethal force does not justify shooting someone.
The autopsy revealed that Kiwane was NOT shot at short range. Therefore, Officer Norbits' gun was NOT discharged as a result of a hand-to-hand struggle with Kiwane, as some respondents to this article have suggested. From the available evidence that is relevant, it appears that Officer Norbits did not handle his gun properly and prematurely discharged it, killing Kiwane. This means that he committed involuntary manslaughter.
Finney has asked for the FBI
Finney has asked for the FBI to become involved in the case. This will still be hought by some to be a white wash of the incident. Who would you want to investigate this? Rev Jackson?
Finney gave the FBI a very limited brief
He specifically said that they should not investigate the States Attorney's decision. This is not the independent investigation people are calling for, because it's too circumscribed.
FBI
I believe the Justice Department is being called in to investigate whether any civil rights were violated.
This is a good thing for CPD and the community.
I don't think Rietz' decision in this case can be reversed. I may be wrong but I don't think anyone can compel prosecution if she says no. Anyone have ideas?
The State of Illinois AG
The State of Illinois AG office could step in ( they have done so in the past here in Champaign County when the County refused to prosecute a case) but if you remember, Lisa weezled out of this at the git go.
Also.
I don't think Rietz's ruling about these charges can be overturned. But if the FBI finds that the officers were guilty of violating his civil rights, or of committing any other crimes, than those charges can be pursued.
FBI is mixed bag, get some lawyers.
Fourty years ago, it took one honest ballistics expert from the FBI to deflate the claims Chicago police made in the Fred Hampton asassination. You might get lucky, but Finney with his self-serving 911 mentallity, along with too much of the same attitude in the FBI, getting justice is as unlikely as having Mulder and Scully show up and prove the shooting was done by aliens.
Failure to obtain a sharp lawyer at the outset is the fatal flaw here.
A number of good firms would have taken this on contigency.
Why didn't the family or their friends and the CUCPJ find a lawyer immediately to file a civil lawsuit at day one to protect the evidence, and also to prevent the piling on of hostile "experts". which is what you now have???!
Finney will strut around and puff his chest as if he has won -
and literally gotten away with murder.
Norbitts is back on the job: just say SNAFU.
You, the citizens are not at square one but you have been "owned" by a known malefactor.
A couple of weeks ago, I posted Fineey's exceptional legacy. With each incident, it seems that cries go up to have him fired. This time, he aims to shut you up for good.
If the CUCPJ really cares, start calling law firms. Start with Loevy and Loevy - then check the Peoria docket to see who have been sucessful in before the federal bench.
David Roknich
Galesburg, Illinois
wow
I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that Kiwane wasn't doing anything wrong in the first place. Period. People who are backing up these stupid theories don't have any common sense whatsoever. It's sad.
wowII
I think it's ridiculous that anyone can make a comment about a kid getting killed because someone's clumsy with his gun and the most important thing is to nitpick about what the guy who got killed had done in the last few seconds/minutes/hours of his life before the clumsy guy f-ed up. There is no theory. These are just the facts. It's sad.
The School to Prison Pipeline
Understanding the Prison-Industrial Complex is something that is necessary in order to understand the context within which Kiwane Carrington lived for anyone reading through these stories about his life and death. This is already a contested landscape.
The community where he lived and died is one where African-Americans are a distinct minority. Local families often have deep roots and live in neighborhoods defined both by tradition and the remnants of former active discrimination. While the traces of past practice fade, the grim reality of limited job opportunities, disparate outcomes from law enforcement encounters, and educational inequities exist blocks away from one of the nation's premier public research institutions. Like so many other vistas on the governmental landscape of Illinois, what seems like a hopeful rustic scene at a distance dissolves into crumbling roots, plowed under in a muddy field, part of a frozen human landscape that is locked in a frozen winter where so much of the humus lies fallow, wasted, never feeling the warmth of the sun, effectively lying in the shadow of a prison wall.
It is a community where so many puff up their pride in great things, their pride in Lincoln and his bootstraps, in the good parts of America, those that follow the rules, keep your nose clean and it'll all turn out OK, home town spirit. It was a simpler life a hundred years ago and the letters to the editor often reflect that. Unfortunately, the breadth of political discussions often reflects that. One often feels as if the Scopes Monkey Trails is a decade of two off in the future, because who could be so presumptuous to actually teach children that we are descended from monkeys!
It should be little wonder then that almost any brutality can be dismissed or excused by simple appeals to the atavistic instincts of the majority population through the appeal of the symbol of the young man from across the tracks. True, the cars of the old Illinois Terminal Railway are long gone, but the University Avenue on which these long-gone conveyances ran still marks a nearly magical dividing line in many neighborhoods. Don't get caught on the wrong side of it or you most likely will be getting railroaded to a bad destination as the most profitable use that local government can make of you.
In the interest of better understanding of where some of the bile and venom comes from that causes people to post about what Kiwane's crimes supposedly were, or how he didn't get down quick enough that day, or about how he should have been in school that day -- never mind that none of that was reason to shoot him nor has anything to do with the clumsy gunhandling that actually seems to be at the root of what happened -- I offer up a couple of links to recent posts on the prison-industrial complex:
http://www.ucimc.org/content/teach-and-treat-our-children-well
http://www.ucimc.org/content/school-prison-pipeline
Magical dividing line?
Nightwatch, do you even know what the hell you're talking about anymore?
"True, the cars of the old Illinois Terminal Railway are long gone, but the University Avenue on which these long-gone conveyances ran still marks a nearly magical dividing line in many neighborhoods."
Nightwatch, old fellow. I live north of University. I have for years. My neighbors are primarily retired couples, hippies, and kids just out of college.
You know how close I live to the house where this took place? It's about a twenty-minute walk. I actually know this for a fact. You know that bar next to the house? The Icehouse? I used to go to that bar fairly frequently, solely because if I had a few drinks (or a few more than a few), I didn't have to worry about calling a cab or getting a ride or anything like that. I could just walk home.
Guess what? I'm not in a gang, nor have I ever committed aggravated battery. This is not South Central, nightwatch.
See, this is what happens when people watch documentaries like "Crips And Bloods: Made In America" or whatever. They take the explanation of why people in South Central become criminals, and assume that that must be why ALL criminals do what they do. Well, the explanation from South Central doesn't hold here. Kiwane had plenty of opportunities. It seemed like he was trying to systematically blow every one of them.
How could eductaional inequities possibly have anything to do with this case? Kiwane never bothered to go to school in the first place!
Job opportunities? Well. Kiwane didn't seem too concerned about those either, or he would have done the simplest thing a person can do to increase his job opportunities: go to school and get a diploma.
How about the disparate outcomes from law enforcement encounters? This kid got arrested for aggravated battery TWICE, and that mean ol' State's Attorney just DROPPED the charges, because his mom was sick! He broke the conditions of his station adjustment years ago, and what happened? Nothing! You are talking out your ass.
"Like so many other vistas on the governmental landscape of Illinois, what seems like a hopeful rustic scene at a distance dissolves into crumbling roots, plowed under in a muddy field, part of a frozen human landscape that is locked in a frozen winter where so much of the humus lies fallow, wasted, never feeling the warmth of the sun, effectively lying in the shadow of a prison wall."
You are also a terrible poet.
"It should be little wonder then that almost any brutality can be dismissed or excused by simple appeals to the atavistic instincts of the majority population through the appeal of the symbol of the young man from across the tracks."
What brutality? You mean Kiwane beating up those other kids? That was dismissed and excused, but I don't think it has anything to do with symbols.
"never mind that none of that was reason to shoot him nor has anything to do with the clumsy gunhandling that actually seems to be at the root of what happened"
Yeah.
*ahem*
NOBODY SAID THAT WAS A REASON TO SHOOT HIM! It was an accident!
Jesus.
Nightwatch, you are the worst. You are absolutely the worst commenter on this whole site. You're worse than Brian. You're not even TRYING to be honest here! You're not even pretending to be dealing with the facts. Why do you do this?
thanks for the intelligent context.
You don't have to go further than Jefferson County to see how seriously the situation is.
That is where they got Finney.
Why do you think?
Here's an incident from Mount Vernon -
the DCFS has joined the plianiffs in the lawsuit. No criminal prosecution.
Lack of it is a crime.
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/20/illinois-officers-sued-for-unprov...
Give me a freakin' break
This community that you speak of is called the ghetto. People live there for a reason. That reason being that they want to. Yes they may be poor, but there are ways to get better housing and better living situation than living in these bad neighborhoods. There are lots of black people in Champaign who DON'T live in the ghetto. I'm black and don't live there. Why would I WANT to live there? Where there's crime, violence, drugs, problems? Why would anyone in their right mind live there?
And for those who live there and don't like it, you can get out. It's called school. If your'e a parent and you have a child. RAISE YOUR KIDS!! Don't blame it on everyone else. Raise your kids, get a job, teach your kids manners, respect, that education is important. If you have those basic foundations, you can get out of the ghetto either by having the funds or the intelligence to understand that the ghetto is NOT a good place.
Not all black neighborhoods are bad. But for some reason, in THIS town many of the predominantly black neighborhoods are full of crime and problems. That's not because of the town, that's because those people chose a life of crime. No one makes you do drugs, rob people, break into houses, etc. It's all about choices. Especially in a town like Champaign Urbana, it's so easy to live here. For any race or creed.
These kids have it made. Champaign is full of diversity. The black children here do not have to worry about gangs. These "gangs" we have here don't even compare to the real gangs in Chicago. Champaign schools are full of great teachers, but the black students don't care because their useless parents don't care. It's all about bein hip and cool. I've seen kids on free lunch with iPods, nice shoes, and jeans I could never afford.
Happy Thoughts with Your Happy Meals
So we have one vote for a happy world and one vote for a happy world as long as you make the write choices and stay out of the wrong neighborhoods.
I think both of you missed my point. So I'll be less metaphorical and more direct. South of University, we can all see what happens when the people of this state choose to invest in the future of SOME of our children. While it's certainly not confined to the area of north of University, you can easily see what happens when we choose to fail to invest in ALL of our children.
And you can read the superficial repetition of the same old, same old of why Kiwane ended up dead because he and his parents didn't care enough in between my two comments. I will grant that one person did admit after unloading on Kiwane and his family that it really was a clumsy cop. Yet, it was still more important to diss on Kiwane one more time.
I guess that is what passes for caring about ALL the children in Illinois. Lots of talk and few resources, then heap the blame for failing on those who don't make on those who lose. Now there's the secret for success, don't ya know?
Investment.
They invested in a whole special school for kids with behavioral needs like Kiwane. He couldn't be bothered to go to that one either.
Look, they PAY to give kids in this town a free education. What are we supposed to do if the kids refuse to avail themselves of this opportunity? Escort them to school at gunpoint?
And I'm not saying the cop wasn't clumsy. Maybe he was. But if Kiwane wasn't so destructive and violent, it wouldn't have even come up as an issue.
I don't think you're in any position to complain about anyone ELSE's superficial repetition of the "same old, same old" though, nightwatch.
One More Vote
I take it from your reply that's one more vote for vigilantism by cop.
Personally, I think Norbits is more noble than that. He may be clumsy, but he's not a chump like you. I doubt he appreciates you trying to drag him down to your level.
Nightwatch, please.
Would you give it a rest? Please? Nobody is saying they're in favor of vigilantism. And the worst part is, you KNOW that nobody is saying that. You just can't come up with a rational response to what anyone is actually saying, so you have to rely on your stupid straw men. Like you always end up doing.
What I have said, and what should be fairly obvious to ANYONE, is that a person with a fully-functioning brain does not get in a struggle with someone who is pointing a gun at them. Accidents happen. They tend not to happen to people who don't put themselves into situations where they will be at risk, though. Like getting into a struggle with a guy who is pointing a gun at them, for example. Maybe Norbits was clumsy. Maybe he needed more training. But it wouldn't have mattered if this kid hadn't done what he did.
Is that fair? I'd say it is. Considering that Norbits has been accused of committing a public execution here by several people, of first degree murder, and even of bringing down the vengeance of god upon this city (perhaps in the form of an earthquake or tornado) by Ray Muhammad, I'd say he deserves a little slack at this point.
Need I remind you, also, that we're talking about a kid who started a fire in his own bedroom? This kid is obviously not one who carefully weighed the costs and benefits of his plans before taking action.
What ANY of this has to do with a lack of investment north of University is beyond me. I think what you're saying is, burning down your own home is the normal, ordinary course of human action, and that the only reason more people DON'T burn down their own homes is that they have expensive government programs that stop them from doing this. If only they had had more where Kiwane grew up, he might have become a more responsible citizen. You could be right, I guess.
Deserving vs Undeserving Victims
What do you mean nobody is justifying vigilantism?
There have been lots of people here and in the community who have argued that Kiwane deserved to die for various reasons:
* He was disrespectful to authority.
* He didn't obey the orders of police.
* He had violated the law previously.
* He had used alcohol and marijuana.
* He was probably trying to commit a crime anyway that day.
Heck, even you say "that a person with a fully-functioning brain does not get in a struggle with someone who is pointing a gun at them."
So I guess you think he needed killing because he wasn't very smart or something. And you accuse ME of setting up strawmen? Sheesh.
Somebody comes up and grabs you when you're just standing there, with a gun in his other hand, after some guy who isn't even in uniform grabs your buddy. This all happens in a matter of seconds. Yeah, accidents do happen. You kind of expect adults to have half a brain. I guess not that day.
You can bitch and moan about others. Don't whine at me while you're contributing your own share to the stupidity factor of the various discussions in this town about this. Why don't you just write a letter to the editor at the News-Gazette instead, as they seem to have a limitless apetite for such nonsense?
I think it's time to end the endless character assassination of Kiwane. You can stop right now. Except you didn't, did you?
So who might have been a deserving victim of Norbits' clumsiness?
* Some nerd from Cherry Hills?
* Some sorority girl whose daddy is a lawyer from the North Shore who'll really sue Champaign's ass off?
* Chief Finney catching a bullet right between the eyes, suddenly wishing he'd used his head, instead of his gun and his mouth?
* Tim Johnson, who just happened to be going door-to-door when Norbits' gun went off?
At what level would you no longer claim that the victim didn't deserve to catch a bullet from Norbits' gun? That Ms. Rietz might do well to consider involuntary manslaughter charges, instead of simply explaining to the victim's family it was "Accidents happen"?
Yeah, when will the character assassination of the dead stop when we all pretty much agree that it really wasn't the victim's fault, but some rather basic violations of training and basic police procedure, some recklessness that there really was no call for that day or any other day?
How is it fair that when people speak up about their fears, based on past bad experience with CPD and fed by two months worth of go-slow by ISP and Ms. Rietz, that maybe it was just all a cover-up, that you'll no longer feel it's OK to continue to use that as an excuse to claim that maybe it's better that Kiwane's dead because he might have set something on fire again?
Quit torching the strawman yourself.
Oh my god.
"There have been lots of people here and in the community who have argued that Kiwane deserved to die for various reasons:"
Really? Who? Is it on this site? Can you give me a link?
Vigilantism would mean that the cops are going around and rooting out every disrespectful kid and shooting him. Has anyone ever suggested they do such a thing? Can you show me where anyone says the kid deserved to get shot for smoking marijuana?
"So I guess you think he needed killing because he wasn't very smart or something. And you accuse ME of setting up strawmen?"
Yes, I do. That last sentence, for starters. I don't think he "needed killing" because he wasn't very smart. I think the fact that he wasn't very smart led to him dying because of the stupid risk he took. I don't think stupidity is like a moral failing or anything.
It's like that religious sect of people who drink poison and handle poisonous snakes. Every so often, one of them gets bitten. Now, do I think that guy DESERVED to die for what he did? Well, not really. But it's also pretty obvious that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been playing with a damn snake.
"Somebody comes up and grabs you when you're just standing there, with a gun in his other hand, after some guy who isn't even in uniform grabs your buddy. This all happens in a matter of seconds."
Someone who is in a police uniform, who tells me he's a police officer, while I'm breaking into a house, and have an extensive history of being arrested and know how to act?
Yeah, I don't think any of that would make me forget what the words "Get on the ground!" mean. I also don't think it would make me forget what a gun is or how dangerous it can be to screw around while one is pointed at me.
What does the fact that it only happened in a few seconds have to do with anything? How long do you think it usually takes to stop someone in a situation like this? A minute or two? Not very likely.
"Why don't you just write a letter to the editor at the News-Gazette instead, as they seem to have a limitless apetite for such nonsense?"
As long as you bring up the News-Gazette, don't you find it interesting that their theory of the events of this evening eventually turned out to be the correct one? Again?
"So who might have been a deserving victim of Norbits' clumsiness?"
None of them. I never said Kiwane DESERVED to die.
Look, stupid. Suppose there's a guy who knows not the first goddamned thing about electricity, about home repairs, or about safety devices. He decides that he's going to fix a short in one of his electrical outlets, without even looking up the right way to do it. He gets electrocuted and dies.
Does he DESERVE to die? Hell no! He could be the nicest guy in the world, for all I know. But he did do something pretty freaking stupid, and I don't really think it's the ELECTRICITY that's to blame for it.
"Yeah, when will the character assassination of the dead stop when we all pretty much agree that it really wasn't the victim's fault, "
Actually, I think everyone agrees that it WAS at least partially the victim's fault. If you don't, then I want to hear you say it, nightwatch. I would like you to say the words "This would certainly still have happened, even if Kiwane had listened to the officer and gotten down on the ground, instead of resisting and rooting around in his pockets." Go ahead. Say it, since that's where you claim I'm wrong.
You won't, will you? Is this because you actually know I'm right?
"that you'll no longer feel it's OK to continue to use that as an excuse to claim that maybe it's better that Kiwane's dead because he might have set something on fire again?"
See? Another strawman. Never did I say that it's better that Kiwane died because he might have set something on fire again. STRAW. MAN.
But I DO think it's worth pointing out that this kid was pretty reckless, and that that certainly sheds some light as to why he might do something as stupid as get in a struggle with a guy with a gun.
Nightwatch, you are an idiot. You are always going to be an idiot. There's probably nothing you can do about that, this late in the game. And no, I don't think that means you deserve to get killed. But you know, you CAN change the fact that you're so completely dishonest. That's something you could do right now.
OMG Yourself, Officer OCD
I don't see much point in discussing sensible things with you, Officer OCD.
But for the benefit of those wondering, yes, a lot of people with attitudes like yours do seem to be insisting that Kiwane should have met a lot of rather bizarre standards to have deserved not to have died that day. They keep writing in about it, like what if he had only not done this or if he had only done that, he would still be alive today.
Heck, you've done it just now.
Just can't help yourself now could you, Officer OCD?
Neither could today's latest round of letters to the editor in the News-Gazette.
Hmmmm, maybe I do have a point and you are just missing it?
What is it about some white folks that makes them do that? Are they all insisting that anybody who questions that dynamic like I and many more do, just "always going to be an idiot," too?
I do NOT see that, but maybe you do?
Some people see and hear things that other people don't. They just need to talk to someone. Or get some drugs or other help. Or to find a new job.
I guess there is just something about capping a 15 year old kid I want to try to avoid.
To keep my sanity, for instance.
I don't really think that I'd be very good about coming up with reasons why I needed to do that unless I had a VERY, VERY, VERY good reason to do that.
And getting obsessed with going back and anonymously posting about how righteous it really was just doesn't have the same attraction for me as it does for you, I guess.
Or whatever your motivation is. Period.
For me it's all about thinking about how we keep from having that happen again.
Because it can lead to even worse things. Like...
For some of your buddies, it's about being obsessed about coming back here and justifying killing some mentally disabled guy 10 years ago. I'd say that your buddies killed some part of themselves that night, not just as one of them called it -- killed "some POS."
Because I'm completely comfortable with justifying NOT killing someone.
And NOT feeling like an idiot doing so.
Because what you're essentially telling us all is that you think you have, want, and even DEMAND our permission to do is to do stupid, reckless things in OUR names.
Let's choose a metaphor, which I'm sure you'll try to pick apart, but which I'll ignore, because I'm done with you in this conversation for now:
You want us to say it's OK for you to respond to an emergency by driving down the interstate the WRONG way with your emergency lights flashing, when you could get there just as fast driving the RIGHT way down the interstate. Then you want to tell us if someone gets killed, it will be OUR fault -- we SHOULD have seen your lights!
I disagree.
But if you insist, then you need to start an entirely new education program to go into all the schools and show a film every year that requires kids to train to hurl themselves against the curb or wall, EVEN AT THE RISK OF BREAKING OUT ALL THEIR TEETH, just so that they are responding appropriately, quickly enough to avoid getting shot by you and your trigger-happy colleagues, sort of like the kids in this old civil defense film, starting at approximately the 6 minute mark mark:
http://www.archive.org/details/DuckandC1951
Remember kids. If you are like Paul, Patty, or Tony, you never know when a cop could be like an atomic bomb and explode! Be prepared at any time of the day or night! You need to be prepared to OBEY and DUCK and COVER and DO THE RIGHT THING! OBEY OFFICER OCD!
So long.
Nightwatch, I think it's great how you're like neurologically incapable of answering a direct question. You've never once been able to do it, have you? I'm going to miss that.
"I don't see much point in discussing sensible things with you, Officer OCD."
Is that why you've never tried yet?
Thank for reminding me I'm a cop, though. I keep forgetting. I wish you'd forward that information to Chief Finney. I need to get signed up for the pension. I keep forgetting that this really IS the best you can do as far as coming up with a logical argument.
As far as OCD goes, I think you decided I must have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder because I keep coming back here and arguing with you. Well, maybe you're onto something. But then, you keep coming back and arguing (well, trying to anyway) with me, so... how are you any different?
"But for the benefit of those wondering, yes, a lot of people with attitudes like yours do seem to be insisting that Kiwane should have met a lot of rather bizarre standards to have deserved not to have died that day. They keep writing in about it, like what if he had only not done this or if he had only done that, he would still be alive today."
That doesn't mean he deserved to, idiot. "Deserved" would mean he did something so bad that dying would be the only just punishment for it. I never said that. I never said that what he did was really all that BAD. Just stupid. And saying that doing stupid things increases your chances of getting killed isn't a moral judgment. It's a re-statement of one of the iron laws of the universe. It's unfortunate. It would be nice if people could be as stupid as they wanted, and not suffer any consequences from it. It's just not true, though.
You could say I'm wrong about that if you want. If you do, though, you won't be arguing with me. You'll be arguing with evidence gleaned from about ten thousand years of recorded human history, as well as the simple logic of what it means to act in a stupid way, assuming we mean that to act in an intelligent way is to act in such a way that it will increase the probability of a good outcome.
But the fact that you think it's bizarre for me to suggest that most people know better than to get into a physical struggle with a man who is pointing a gun at them tells me a lot about you, nightwatch. Nothing particularly flattering, of course, but then nothing I hadn't already guessed either.
"What is it about some white folks that makes them do that? Are they all insisting that anybody who questions that dynamic like I and many more do, just 'always going to be an idiot,' too?"
Well, I can't speak for any other white people, but as for myself, I don't get it because I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.
The only dynamic I've really been talking about is that guns can kill you. It's rather easy to make one go off. When you cause someone who is pointing one at you to have to physically struggle, his finger may be forced against the trigger mechanism, causing the gun to eject a metal projectile that can enter your heart and end your life. Therefore, you really shouldn't do it if you want to have a good chance of living much longer.
Yes, if you question that dynamic, you are always going to be an idiot. I don't think it's really a race thing, though. I'm pretty sure most people of every race understand this.
"I don't really think that I'd be very good about coming up with reasons why I needed to do that unless I had a VERY, VERY, VERY good reason to do that."
Yeah, well. It's a good thing that nobody has EVER said that they NEEDED to do it, isn't it? It was an accident. Everybody else has gotten the memo by this point. For some reason, you're behind again.
"For me it's all about thinking about how we keep from having that happen again."
Is it now? Then why is it that you've never said anything about how to keep this from ever happening again? Why is it that all you ever do is shout, call people names, baselessly accuse the cops of being on "steroids or bootlegged meth" who shoot people even when they comply, and claim that others say Kiwane needed to die because if he didn't, he might set something on fire again?
But if you really mean that you want to keep accidental shootings from happening again, then that's great. Not very profound. I mean, I don't know too many people who are in favor of MORE accidental shootings. I'm sure you think there are, but as always, you're making stuff up.
So it'll be good for you to know that there are people working on improving police procedure all the time to decrease the chances of this. There are some people whose job it is to analyze these things, and make improvements in training, as well as police equipment. And it's been working. Accidental shootings have been going down for awhile. But if you mean that you want for it to never, ever happen again, I think your best bet is to take away the police's handguns and replace them with NERF foam dart guns. Because as long as human beings are operating the guns, mistakes will happen. People are fallible.
But you know. Think of it like fatal car accidents. Those have been going down too. Safety devices such as anti-lock brakes have been making crashes less common, and ones like seat belts and airbags have made the ones that happen less fatal.
But they still happen. They're still GOING to happen, as long as human beings are behind the wheel. I can predict some new kind of technology. Maybe an advanced collision-avoidance sensor that steers the car or puts on the brakes for you that keeps you from hitting anything. And hell, for all I know, that'll be around in fifteen or twenty years. And that'll be great.
But until such time as that technology comes online, you know what your best bet is? Don't drive like a jackass. Don't drive drunk. Don't drive distracted. Don't drive aggressively. Do those things and your chances of getting involved in a car crash will go down dramatically.
Now, I know you think it's horrible for me to suggest that people take some responsibility for their own safety. You apparently think that people who are sending text messages and pulling out in front of people should be magically protected from the stupidity of their own actions, and that instead of behaving like intelligent human beings, we should just bitch about all the bad things that happen to us. Well, that would be nice, but it's not really going to help much.
For me, I consider knowing this to be good news. I'm glad to know that there are things I can do to increase my own safety. It works the same way with the cops. It's good for me to know that, if I use my head and don't fight with him, I'm not going to get shot. You seem to have a real problem with this. You want people to feel powerless. You seem to want people to think that if a cop is going to shoot you, he's just going to shoot you, and it has nothing to do with anything you do. So you might as well just keep acting like an idiot. Well, if that's what you want to think, that's fine. But I can assure you, an attitude like that is NOT going to keep this from happening again. It's pretty much guaranteed to make it happen more often, in fact.
"For some of your buddies, it's about being obsessed about coming back here and justifying killing some mentally disabled guy 10 years ago"
See? That's actually a fairly good example of what I'm talking about. Positional asphyxiation was not widely known about at that time. I'm sure you never heard of it back then. But once people studied incidents like that, the procedures changed, and now the likelihood of it happening has decreased greatly.
"Because what you're essentially telling us all is that you think you have, want, and even DEMAND our permission to do is to do stupid, reckless things in OUR names."
I am? What the...
Oh, right. I'm a cop. Because you can't come up with anything better. I keep forgetting.
"You want us to say it's OK for you to respond to an emergency by driving down the interstate the WRONG way with your emergency lights flashing, when you could get there just as fast driving the RIGHT way down the interstate. Then you want to tell us if someone gets killed, it will be OUR fault -- we SHOULD have seen your lights!"
Umm. No. Just no, nightwatch. God, you're pathetic.
Nightwatch, honestly. How much f*cking sense does it take to get down on the ground when a cop tells you to do it? They arrest thousands of people a year in this town, and guess what? Most of them are able to figure it out. Most of them manage not to pull away from the officer when he tries to grab ahold of them.
Where the hell do you come up with this stuff about the kids somehow NOT KNOWING that they weren't supposed to resist arrest? Did he really not know that? If so, he's even stupider than I thought, and probably wouldn't have lived much longer anyway, before just wandering out into traffic or climbing into a polar bear cage at the zoo and taunting him or something. He KNEW what he was doing. He just didn't want to get into trouble. And having run from the police before, with no negative consequences to him AT ALL, he probably thought it was no big deal. Stupid.
Nightwatch, I'm glad you're done with me, because I'm pretty sure I'm done with you and this site as well. At least until I get really bored at work again. It used to be fun. It was fun because people make such wild, unsupportable accusations, but then never admit when they're wrong. So if you keep pointing out where they're full of crap, they paint themselves into some really hilarious corners, and it's kind of fun to watch.
And, I admit that it's still fun watching you try to come up with something intelligent, but failing, so that you resort to shouting about nuclear bombs or whatever.
But I've been feeling bad about it lately. I realized what I've been doing, is essentially picking on you. I've been arguing with you because I knew that you simply weren't capable of fighting back intelligently. It's bullying, is what I was doing. I've felt like a jerk about it for awhile, but with this last spewing from you, I think it finally pushed me over the edge.
clueless
when I see utter trash like the above posted, I really think anonymity should be fobidden.
David Roknich
Galesburg, Illinois
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